Sgail

[+Nyx]

All this conspiracy theory junk and whining that some players QQ and get their way with V and I is really starting to piss me off.

Sgail, Umbris, and fel Wrong were designed and intended to be *HARD*. They were designed and intended to be high-end. They were all designed and opened more than a year ago. We are bringing them back to what their original intention was, because over all that time they have begun to be utilized in ways that are not appropriate for their intent.

We have noticed that now, this influx of newer players who want everything handed to them has led to some short-sighted older players with relayers taking advantage of some bugs/issues in these areas in order to run people through who should have no business being there. This is VERY far against our original intention and V and I have always felt that all players on this shard should have to work hard to get the higher level items.

As for mid-level things, well there are the places previously mentioned. Balrons/lurgs, peerless. Other fel dungeons. There is always plenty of stuff to do. If there isn't, why are our mid-level players out doing things whenever I make rounds?

Keep in mind that if we did what you naysayers want with these areas, everything there would be cut back. Loot would be greatly diminished, quest rewards would be diminished to be in line with mid-level player gear. Weapon xp would be completely removed. All extra bonuses such as ore, ointments, gargoyle items, etc would be removed or severely decreased. Not only is that a whole lot more work for us, making it on par with just creating an entirely new area time-wise, but it's also ridiculous and wouldn't make ANYBODY happy.

I am not saying we won't in the future design and build more mid-level areas, or revamp fel dungeons for the middle of the road folks. That is likely to happen, but as I mentioned previously it takes tons more time, as well as requires things from Colibri that we are not able to get on a whim and in some cases have been waiting a year for. There are many more factors involved behind the scenes that players have no knowledge of, so please spare us the litany of complaints that we don't care about the mid-level players or listen to the whining of the high-end players and give them whatever they want.

What I am saying is that this is what we have decided to tackle next, and we will be doing so regardless of any player input (read: griping). These areas were intended to be a certain way, and we are going to ensure they stay in that vein. Contrary to irritating and completely unfounded belief/accusations, whining doesn't get anybody anywhere with +V or with myself.

I'm also pointing out this rudeness and QQ are really REALLY getting old. This is a thread about Sgail. If you don't have any productive and non inflammatory questions regarding that, Umbris, or fel Wrong, don't post. Take your soapbox somewhere else.

[Nelapsi]

What she said... Just with my stamp of approval!

[Devlin]

Sgail is hard because it offers the best non-relayer piece of gear available on this shard. It was also introduced specifically for veterans and players that are decked out, because the amount of content for a player with over 400 HP on this shard is significantly lacking.

Yeah, there is a disparity when you consider donating and the amount of time able to be invested into a shard. That is the nature of this shard, however. The more time and money you put in, the better you are. Some invest more time than money, others more money than time. To the players that cannot invest enough time or money to get to the levels of Umbris or Sgail, simply put, you may need to accept the fact that there is some content in the game you will never be able to access. I'm sure a number of people here have or still play WoW, a game that takes an inordinate amount of invested time in order to even SEE some of the content, let alone acquire gear from it or beat it. It would be half-witted of Blizzard to nerf every high-end raid and dungeon to make the playing field level. It is no different here. There are varying levels of difficulty on this shard and some people will simply not see the top few. If you do not intend on investing either a.) your skills and time or b.) your money, then I am sorry, but this may not be the shard for you. Pants with 60 Mana/30% Spdmg are not just going to be handed out all willy-nilly.

It would be interesting to see less arguments and more collaboration on new ideas. Stop pointing out the negative and flaming that which you do not like. Come up with new ideas that could benefit the shard, not ones that hurt it. Propose more updates of trammel dungeons such as what happened to Fire and parts of Shame (i believe). Propose a mini-boss at the castle in Destard mountain that drops a nice Shirt/Kilt (or other items with no stats, for people without relayers.) Propose the inclusion of more low-level quests such as the one outside the Orc Cave, to give players the chance to get better, non-crafted gear. Propose daily quests for hunting dragons, daemons, balrons and other mobs that could award any form of currency available in-game currently, or a new currency, used to obtain either a new set of gear (again, designed to give players a chance for better, non-crafted gear) or a currently existing set of gear/weapon. Propose the revamping of MANY Ilsh spots to include another region such as Umbris/Wrong and/or update spots similar to Trammel Dungeons (or anything that would attract more people to Ilsh. Same thing applies to Tokuno... Although people do actually hunt there. Never liked it personally.) There are countless ideas out there. What are yours?

Also, just to touch upon what Xavian said. There have been past discussions about nerfing instant-heal, modding the dex cap, etc. etc. etc. It was met with fiery protest and was shut down faster than {insert witty analogy here.} To change one of the core basics of the game (and something MANY people have put money into) would most likely result in a massive drop of players from the shard. Go ahead and tell people that their expensive relayers will not fulfill the purpose they bought them for and watch how fast people head for high ground. To mod the 220 Dex system is suicide for this shard.

[cope80]

Ok constructive feedback. I vote we leave Fel Wrong the way it is for higher mid level players, and use one of the MANY unspawned areas to make a place for the higher end gear peeps. Fel wrong works, and its already there and running. Why shut it down and take the time to redo everything when nothing there is broken? It was designed for exactly what it is so why bump it up? Just a couple of questions I personally am curious about, and am sure many others are. I apologize for the complaint fest just tired of hearing the vets say there is no high end content, and the mid levels saying there is no mid level content. Its not coming from one place it is all over. Also as far as asking for handouts and want all my gear and skills handed to me that is very far from the case. As a "newer" player here all I can do is comment on what I see, and hope that my opinion (read: griping) gets heard. Sometimes it may be stated the wrong way, but trust me I do appreciate all the work that the GM's do here. I know your understaffed and overworked, so please do not take anything I say as directed at you.

[Cornbread]

Somehow I managed to earn enough for all 16 or however many layers you can wear to now be relayered without farming Wrong or donating for a single one. So there is plenty for mid level people to do to get the uber gear without donating. Ok, enough of that.

As for Sgail, Wrong or Umbris I believe +Nyx is completely on par since when they were all put out they were announce to be high-end dungeons. Them being high-end I should die there when I fight with over 600HP, especially while watching TV and halfway playing the game without using anything but a heal script, like I currently do.

Now for the mid-level people I definitely believe they need a place to farm that will allow them to get ointments like the aforementioned places do. What would be wonderful is a touch of what Devlin said when he stated redoing some dungeons. Unsure of the feasability of what +V and +N can do, but possibly doubling spawn rates in some fel dungeons. If I remember correctly when the Trammel dungeon were redone it was not a lengthy process for the GMs to do. This would allow a nice spot that requires more than standing in one location in what is supposed to be a high-end dungeon and running a script to farm all day. When I or any others I've seen with lots of relayers farm Wrong, Sgail or Umbris we run around and actually kill more than one location. To me farming should take a little effort. If it didn't it'd be called "stand in one spot and get rich".

[+Nyx]

I vote we leave Fel Wrong the way it is for higher mid level players, and use one of the MANY unspawned areas to make a place for the higher end gear peeps. Fel wrong works, and its already there and running. Why shut it down and take the time to redo everything when nothing there is broken? It was designed for exactly what it is so why bump it up?

Okay, clearly you aren't really listening. I repeat:

... modifications to these areas is in keeping with their original purposes and thus the best route. They were never meant to be mid-level areas. They were meant to be "show off your relayers" areas. Now that it is clear they are not being utilized this way, we intend to resolve that issue.

Sgail, Umbris, and fel Wrong were designed and intended to be *HARD*. They were designed and intended to be high-end. They were all designed and opened more than a year ago. We are bringing them back to what their original intention was, because over all that time they have begun to be utilized in ways that are not appropriate for their intent.

They were not designed or intended to be mid-level content. They were designed and intended to be HIGH end content. They are not being utilized that way currently, so they need tweaks. There are a number of bugs and minor exploits being abused in all of these areas, which need to be fixed. Yes, that might mean they are harder. But that is how they were always supposed to be. Just because a handful of people figured out how to manipulate or exploit the systems to make them easier so that they could be lazier or run their noob friends through places they have no business being, doesn't make it okay. You may think that because it benefits you as a mid-level player that there is nothing "broken" there, but when we design a place to be for folks with gear like Anarchy to be entertained and challenged and eventually folks with 3 or less relayers end up playing there without too much difficulty, then yes the system in that area is broken and needs to be fixed. Saying we should do nothing about it so that the people currently taking full advantage of the bugs in the system can continue to do so is like saying that if colibri accidentally messed up a line of code and suddenly all weapons hit level 100 in 100k xp, we shouldn't fix it since it helps the mid level players.

On top of trying to ensure there is enough interesting content for any player at any level to do at any given time on this shard, we also have to be very careful in everything we add. We have to make sure that nothing breaks the game, ruins pricing, inflates the economy too far, etc etc etc. Giving mid-level players items that even the high-end players could utilize would, over time, completely bork the game and the economy. Yes, it seems nice in the short-term because it benefits you and you get 'uber' more quickly; but it hurts the shard greatly in the long-term. Entertaining the masses while still looking at the bigger picture is what being staff is all about.

So... yeah.

[+Nyx]

What would be wonderful is a touch of what Devlin said when he stated redoing some dungeons. Unsure of the feasability of what +V and +N can do, but possibly doubling spawn rates in some fel dungeons. If I remember correctly when the Trammel dungeon were redone it was not a lengthy process for the GMs to do.

I'd like to revamp the rest of the dungeons, including ilsh and fel, the way I did Destard and Shame. I have repeatedly asked for permission but alas, I have not been granted it yet. If/when I ever do get the green-light, believe me, y'all will know

So yes, I understand everyone wants to put their 2cents in, but as I've said before, it isn't that we don't think there should be more revamps and whatnot done to benefit the mid level player. We absolutely do. However, we can only do so much and there are always things going on behind the scenes that may delay or outright prevent us from doing things that you guys want us to do, even if we think they'd be cool.

[cope80]

Thank you for the reply +Nyx...didnt realize there were exploits and such being used in all said locations. Thought it was sgail only. Definitely agreed anything exploitable should be fixed. Fortunately I do not use any said exploits so all is well Again sorry for all the ranting.

[Xavian]

As for Sgail, Wrong or Umbris I believe +Nyx is completely on par since when they were all put out they were announce to be high-end dungeons. Them being high-end I should die there when I fight with over 600HP, especially while watching TV and halfway playing the game without using anything but a heal script, like I currently do.

So.. What is the definition of exploit?

ex·ploit [ik-sploit]
verb
1. to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity.
2. to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers.
3. to advance or further through exploitation; promote: He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.

Ok, so now that we have that definition out of the way.. Knowing that it is not high-end as it should be and not reporting the issue would be considered an exploit would it not? The exploit didn't get reported until it was no longer profitable to those who had been exploiting it throughout it's existance.

[Dramoor]

Ok, so now that we have that definition out of the way.. Knowing that it is not high-end as it should be and not reporting the issue would be considered an exploit would it not? The exploit didn't get reported until it was no longer profitable to those who had been exploiting it throughout it's existance.

For the record. I paged on it. And reported it. And I have never entered Sgail. Care to go on some more? I found out things worked that probably shouldn't paged about it. It was closed.

[Xavian]

You paged on Sgail, and rightfully so. The other two places were closed because they couldn't be farmed as efficiently since they became a farming spot for others.

[+Nyx]

The exploit didn't get reported until it was no longer profitable to those who had been exploiting it throughout it's existance.

The other two places were closed because they couldn't be farmed as efficiently since they became a farming spot for others.

Xavian, your combative and presumptuous attitude is inappropriate and out of place here. You have absolutely no idea when we were first made aware of the issue, or when the process began behind the scenes. You also have no clue what prompted the closings or why it happened now instead of earlier. Don't make assumptions and then speak decisively as if they are fact simply to stir up negativity that has no business in this thread.

Since I *am* aware what goes on behind the scenes, let me enlighten you. We have known for awhile now about these issues, but were hoping to avoid closing the areas down for the fixes. Unfortunately, due to various factors, we were unable to repair the areas in as timely a fashion as we would have liked. Things recently came to a point where we were receiving pages and complaints frequently enough to warrant simply closing the lot down until we can fix them. Those are the facts.

Now, seriously, if everyone cannot behave appropriately and converse constructively without trying to stir up unnecessary negativity, I will lock the thread.

[Draconomicon]

It blows my mind how many people are unwilling to come to terms with the issue or are unwilling to support a clean economy because they want to be party to cheaters. Unbelievable.

[Asmodean]

Thank you Nyx, and Veritas. Some of us don't always see, or sometimes forget all you do. I know if i had a patch, and it didn't go in 6+ months after it was finished, i would have very little motivation to do much of anything else for the shard. You're a better person than me.

Now that that's out of the way, someone who KNOWS, not THINKS correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't fel wrong toned down because certain people thought it was too hard? I honestly wouldn't know. I ventured there once when i had 220 dex, and now i'm on my 3rd relayer, and still have problems in some spots. I am uncertain if it was pre or post nerf, or if there even was a nerf to begin with.

Same goes with Sgail. Wasn't that toned down because some found it too difficult? I have no clue about umbris.

I personally feel the biggest gap is during the transition from mid-level, to end-game content. Stuff becomes either too easy, or remains too hard. In my opinion this is the area that needs work.

Whether it be in the form of new dungeons, areas, monsters, whatever. I understand Colibri is also busy, and I also understand that it's frustrating to not be able to do anything when you have the power TO do something. (As Nyx mentioned asking permission to change/update/re-do ilshenar, and other dungeons).

I think we all have some great ideas, and contributions, and our presence alters the shard in some small (or sometimes large) way. But we need to focus on the positive, and how we can change things for the better, rather than complain about things we have no control over.

I was enjoying Fel Wrong the way it is right now, but if its not meant to be this easy, then so be it. I have 2 choices. Push on, or find somewhere else to play. I choose option 1, so I need to work on more re-layers to be able to do that content.

I've posted numerous ideas, publicly and privately, and Nyx probably wants to [kill me, but ya know what, if even one gets looked at, and put in, I've left my mark on the shard, and that's just awesome. If not, well, I can either accept it, go somewhere else, or start my own shard.

I'll say again, overall i'm happy with this shard. I think some things could be streamlined, or altered to give the GMs more power to do things on their own, but that isn't in my control, so whatever. I'm going to keep playing here, and keep on working at being elite.

One suggestion we have discussed on teamspeak, is gear restrictions based on account age, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for players to jump from nobody to superNoob with a donation. Without the time played, and any other requirements, you simply can't get to that uber level. I understand this is probably never going to get implemented, but hey, its a thought. You could even take it a step farther and limit stats by account age, so even if you had gear that would put you at 220 dex, you're only at 200, because your account isn't a year old or something.

I think I speak for many, when I say we appreciate all you do for us Colibri, Veritas, Nyx, Mocha, Jade, and whomever else has come and gone over the years. Without you, there would be no Excelsior.

[anarchy]

An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] It is often colloquially abbreviated sploit. Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_%28video_gaming%29

true definition