Trouble makers hurt the shard

[+Nyx]

Well, I see it was an eventful evening while I was AFK.

Guys, I get that you want to stick up for whomever, but if you're going to dress someone down on the forums, please do it constructively, factually, and without ridiculous insults. These flaming, spamming posts (particularly with photos) are only part of the problem and are what derailed this topic in the first place. I am all in favor of a cleverly used meme image, or a statement image; but there's a time and a place for them. Threads like this are not it. This could have been a really good thread for the shard to discuss what is a definite and growing problem for all of you - whether you've realized it or not - here on uoex. But instead different kinds of troublemakers have been consistently derailing it with flaming. I've now read the removed post but really guys, contributing to the problem just hurts a constructive topic that really could use airtime.

[Wil]

Another shard I play has a novel solution to this problem: They have an explicit trash-talk forum. When a thread starts to get derailed with personal attacks, all of the offending posts are moved to the trash talk forum. No one gets censored so they don't get overly bent out of shape but at the same time the original threads don't suffer major disruption. And of course everyone is free to ignore the trash talk forum.

More work than just deleting a post, but IMO worth it.

[Cygnus]

I don't necessarily agree with the premise of the post and here is why. When I started the average player base was 7, now it is around 200. There have been trouble makers and cheaters during this whole journey yet the shard continues to grow. The vast majority of this growth is due to efforts from +C, +V , +N, +R and all of the good staff from the past as well as the high quality player base that anchors this shard. The players deemed trouble makers really don't impact this game unless you allow it. I know there have been some instances where some have gone out of their way to ruin another's experience and that is the unfortunate part, but all in all the shard is alive and thriving due to the above mentioned attributes.
As for me, I could care less if someone finds a way to get all top notch gear illegally, or gets away from punishment because they are in good with the staff or donates copious amounts dollars to the shard. If that happens (not saying it does), so what? I come to play to escape the real world for a short time. The last thing I want to do is bring the real world into the game.
If players are annoying in chat, turn off chat. If others are rude, ignore them. If they cheat, page about it and then move on. Don't let others ruin your fun. But like I said earlier, evidently most of us are because the shard continues to grow because Excelsior's good far outweighs any of its negatives. Long live Excelsior!

[+Veritas]

Another shard I play has a novel solution to this problem: They have an explicit trash-talk forum. When a thread starts to get derailed with personal attacks, all of the offending posts are moved to the trash talk forum. No one gets censored so they don't get overly bent out of shape but at the same time the original threads don't suffer major disruption. And of course everyone is free to ignore the trash talk forum.

More work than just deleting a post, but IMO worth it.

I wouldn't mind entertaining that idea if it weren't for our anti-blacklisting policy in the codex. If that flaming/trash talk is readily available for anyone to see and participate, it would be in violation of this shard's rules. I played on Metropolis shard a bit in 2006 and it was pretty much enforced like that. But, then again, it was a PvP shard with little to no rules. It also didn't have a world chat. It had an iirc channel, which was full of flame 24/7. But anyway...

It would be a fair idea if it weren't for the atmosphere we are trying to maintain here.

+V

[fixxer1963]

It seems the thread has had the meaning confused with the personal rants and other smoke. It is about the small handful of people that make all sorts of trouble and drama. And how that trouble and drama has discouraged several other players, even caused some to quit the shard. And these people will brag about how they can do as they please. Either because they donate... or because the admins are not allowed to do anything significant as punishment.. or they are influential or know influential people.
It is a common perception that certain people are above the rules. And many people leave when they become aware of this perception. Potentially people that may donate or otherwise contribute to the shard in positive ways.
But Colibri placed some poll stones in Magincia for people to voice their concerns in a private manner. So we will see how things go.

[Dain Firehelm]

It is a common perception that certain people are above the rules. And many people leave when they become aware of this perception.

I think thats probably not that accurate. And please dont think of this statement as any sort of correction or argument towards you. It's just that i havent ever had that perception, nor probably the vast majority of the ppl i talk to in-game, either through world chat, PMs or guild chat. It is true that some ppl have spoken to me about that in the span of almost 3 years here... but i could swear that thats's been less than 10 times. So, even though i wouldnt go as far as saying thats absolutely not true, my personal experience tells me otherwise, and i do talk to A LOT of ppl everyday.

Again, im not trying to initiate any sort of argument here, but it just stroke me as a surprise

cheers.

[fixxer1963]

I have been here less than a year, and I have heard this complaint from far more than 30 people. I don't say that the perception is true, but it is there. And denying something does not make it go away. Even the admins have stated that in some cases the "punishment" is nowhere near strong enough. Even a "slap on the wrist".

[Dain Firehelm]

I have been here less than a year, and I have heard this complaint from far more than 30 people. I don't say that the perception is true, but it is there..

Fair enough it's perfectly possible that the people we talk to in-game just have different degrees of concern over this matter.

And all in all, i may not be 100% objective since i fully agree with Cygnus about this whole thing. Even if some kind of mean evil twins of the admins came and said "Yeah! we favour our protegées,let them do whatever they want,and give them titans hammers every day and destroy their enemies for them muahaha!" (i got carried away there xD but you get my point)... i wouldnt mind as long as it didnt interfere with my game experience. More so since this is a non PVP shard. The only concern for me would be economy...but i would assume those people would be billionaires a long time ago and any negative impact on the shard would already have taken place, and as much as people complain about a devaluated economy , it's more than good enough for me as it is... but again, its just my opinion and ideals, and i understand completely if someone sees it in a totally different light

p.s: im glad this conversation is taking a turn for a more constructive and calmed dialogue thanks to all of you fellow excelsorians. Because in the end, we all want the same to enjoy the game and gaming with other people.

[Melkor]

I've been staying out of this thread, but I will say just this, a quote.

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now

-THE YOUNGBLOODS

[Sethra Lavode]

I think this thread started out as a sincere concern for the shard...then went wonky, as can happen.

I think one thing we all can do is make an active decision to be helpful, kind and follow the rules. Make an active decision to let the staff handle people that are breaking the rules: report it and move on. Make an active decision to not slander people in public areas: global chat, forums, even over head type, in some cases. There are MANY times I will see a player in global say something that breaks the rules or at least bends them hard enough to notice - I will PM that person and just try to give them a heads-up. I say it nicely. If they respond back in a rude manner, I ignore it and them: what do I care? If they get chat banned or jailed or whatever, it's all on them. Here's the thing: more times than not, the player responds with a THANK YOU. That makes it all worth it, for me.

I care about this shard. I care for many of the players on it. I have met some really interesting, nice, lovely, nifty-cool-neatO people and I want them and the shard to be around for a loooooong while!!!!

Love, Peace and Chicken Grease! Ok, Ok...and bacon.

[fixxer1963]

Saying that the problem does not affect you, therefore it does not matter, or telling people to "just love one another" are not constructive suggestions.
The problem does exist. It does affect the shard as a whole, even if indirectly. And it needs to be addressed.
There needs to be more severe consequences for the more severe violations.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[Dain Firehelm]

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Thats pure extremism. Im out of this thread.

I wish u the best and hope everyone finds his/her way to enjoy this shard

[fixxer1963]

so·ci·o·path
ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/Submit
noun
a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.


This is what we are dealing with. You can not expect someone without a conscience to "just love one another".
It is not possible for them to care about others like a normal person.
And it is not really their fault. They were born like this.
All you can do is convince them to find other arenas where they may fit in, or be accepted.
Or at the very least make the punishment severe enough that they will either leave, or adapt.

[Ishamael]

Honestly, I feel this whole thread is divisive, and does not help the harmony of the shard. I have had very few problems on this shard in 5 years, with players and staff. In fact, compared the the OSI and most other free shards, this place is utopian. If there are a few troublemakers, one of their goals is attention, which is exactly what this thread gives them. It helps them feel empowered, and will only encourage more of the same. Have faith that the staff is as evenhanded as possible with rules enforcement, and don't feed the trolls.

[+Nyx]

Asking everyone to just "get along" and "be nice" are great thoughts and things that every person -should- strive for in their lives as much as is reasonable.

The problem is that we're dealing with players who don't have the required maturity, presence of mind, self awareness and empathy necessary to do such things. Further, that does nothing for those of us on staff. Us being nice to these problem players does absolutely nothing but make the problem worse. "Just ignore it" is not an option for us, since enforcing the rules is one of the primary functions of being a staff member. We are subjected to being taunted, mocked, insulted, cussed at, and on occasion threatened by these players and in most cases the worst we can give them is 50 tasks. Which is nowhere near enough for the problem player to learn a lesson. It doesn't keep them from playing long enough to calm down and take a step back. It doesn't do -anything- to prevent future behavior.

Where we have seen the best progress with players has been when we have given them 200+ and/or banned them from events for 6+ months. Generally those players calm down enough to look at the situation more objectively and to rethink what they have said and done, and in most cases they try to make amends (which is great!). But in cases where a player has repeatedly received small numbers of tasks or small chat bans/etc, there is usually zero improvement in their behavior. Oftentimes it seems they wait until the ~3-6 month mark since their last tantrum and then start something again. Often to then use the excuse "but I've been perfectly nice for ages now, I shouldn't get a higher punishment!".

I speculate that +C worries that these players will quit if punished too harshly, and then the shard will get a bad rep. For me, the players lavishing praise on this shard far outweigh any obviously insane people ranting about it being awful, and it wouldn't stop new players joining. I'm firmly of the mind that if a player can't learn from an experience like being lectured and jailed and then modify their behavior and attitude toward those of us volunteering large amounts of our free time then they shouldn't be here anyway. That is what this thread is really about - more effective punishments for players who consistently make themselves a problem and/or mistreat the staff. Because even if those players don't affect you personally, they affect us. And all of you are the ones benefiting from us being here and doing what we do.

Everybody has their wonky days or gets a little out of hand with a joke now and then, and those of you posting here about "it doesn't bother me" and "just get along" - most of you are not at all part of the problem. But that doesn't negate that there is a problem and that the staff have (in our opinions) too little recourse for dealing with it. +V and I have lasted this long staffing here largely because we have one another and this is a shared hobby, but also because we are both incredibly patient people and we both have a genuine and abiding love for Excelsior and what it represents. But it does get very old - and it stops being fun to log on - when we've got to deal with these repeat offenders essentially causing drama for no reason, doing a couple hours in jail and then starting all over at some random point. It's supposed to be a fun hobby, not something we dread doing; and sometimes the scale is heavily on the dread side.