Trouble makers hurt the shard

[Melkor]

But in cases where a player has repeatedly received small numbers of tasks or small chat bans/etc, there is usually zero improvement in their behavior. Oftentimes it seems they wait until the ~3-6 month mark since their last tantrum and then start something again. Often to then use the excuse "but I've been perfectly nice for ages now, I shouldn't get a higher punishment!"...

...I speculate that +C worries that these players will quit if punished too harshly, and then the shard will get a bad rep...

...I'm firmly of the mind that if a player can't learn from an experience like being lectured and jailed and then modify their behavior and attitude toward those of us volunteering large amounts of our free time then they shouldn't be here anyway...

...there is a problem and that the staff have (in our opinions) too little recourse for dealing with it.

Sounds like only +C can fix the problem. +N, your logic seems sound. Not that it matters much what I think, but I fully support this.

[+Nyx]

True, and he's more likely to initiate positive changes if he understands that those of you good players would support it. Hence the thread and poll stones in Magincia

[Pariah]

Tells it like it is...

Preach. I'm not trying to cast stones or anything here. However, for most players that are commenting here that we should all play nice, I don't see you out and about very often. Perhaps you engage in mostly singular activities (deco, BODs/crafting, etc.). Perhaps you and I are just on opposite schedules, but I explore...A LOT. I level weapons, I kill spawn, I tame one of everything, participate in champs. I'm in Ilshenar, Felucca, Tokuno, Peerless, Doom, GOC, etc. sometimes all in the same day. In the last few months, I've seen a significant influx of rule breaking (skipping lines, AFK weapon leveling, kill stealing, etc.). As a player who consumes a lot of the content, this IS frustrating to me. It's a bit altruistic to say "we should all turn the other cheek," when you're not exposed to the ramifications of another player's rule breaking on a regular basis. I believe +Nyx is correct,the problem lies with the lack of a significant punishment, but then again, I've yet to visit jail so I'm not sure what completing tasks entails. Also, I do believe that there is a knowledge gap with players coming in and a general attitude problem. When someone breaks the rules and it impacts me, I try to let them know, generally in a productive tone, that they are breaking the rules and what the rule states. I try not to involve staff or page unless that message is not received. It used to be such that this would happen rarely and the offending player would apologize (this occasionally still occurs), but more often lately I've been responded to disrespectfully as if I am the one in the wrong for calling out rule-breaking. Then I page, but I feel like a heel for doing so. What happens beyond that? Well, I don't have recidivism rates for UOEX, but I'd be willing to bet they are fairly high. So, the problem exists in that players are not well versed on the rules, and/or the punishment is not a significant enough deterrent. Should we lose players who become disengaged because of those demonstrating poor citizenship? Should we allow the few bad apples to become the majority? I would rather not...

[+Nyx]

I've yet to visit jail so I'm not sure what completing tasks entails.

Just wanted to make a note re: what rock jail entails. The first post in this thread outlines how the jail works: http://www.uoex.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6976 but please note that the second post is no longer accurate - the codex reflects our current ruleset, for those wishing to reference it.

[culichi]

ive only been here for a few months and rarely do peerless or gauntlet and almost no weapon leveling so that's probably why ive seldom seen any bad behavior firsthand. what I do see a lot of is people escalating chat drama by scolding and lecturing people on chat for minor speech violations because they said the "b" word or something just as innocuous. it sometimes seems to me like they are deliberately goading the offender into a free speech rant and even bigger offenses. I know sometimes the person who broke the speech rule will go off into a tangent simply from someone trying to be helpful to a newcomer pointing out that there are rules but other times I think the self appointed enforcers just like to start drama. if someone says a relatively naughty word which is a violation of rules and they don't want to hear a friendly reminder about the rules why not just drop it and report the offense rather than start an annoying two sided rant about children and free speech? im not arguing the speech rules im not a fan of them but I fully accept them as a condition of playing on this server I just think that a pm from an admin causes less drama and is more effective than a public scolding from fellow players.

as far as the private conversations between admins and abusive players I think one warning is pretty lenient already I dunno why repeated incidents are tolerated. if someone is willing to act that way towards the people in charge of the server I can only imagine how far they are willing to go with fellow players.

[Fiernocht]

To quote Halestorm "Rules, and bones, are made to be broken" Kidding kidding dont beat me!

[+Nyx]

what I do see a lot of is people escalating chat drama by scolding and lecturing people on chat for minor speech violations because they said the "b" word or something just as innocuous. it sometimes seems to me like they are deliberately goading the offender into a free speech rant and even bigger offenses. I know sometimes the person who broke the speech rule will go off into a tangent simply from someone trying to be helpful to a newcomer pointing out that there are rules but other times I think the self appointed enforcers just like to start drama. if someone says a relatively naughty word which is a violation of rules and they don't want to hear a friendly reminder about the rules why not just drop it and report the offense rather than start an annoying two sided rant about children and free speech? im not arguing the speech rules im not a fan of them but I fully accept them as a condition of playing on this server I just think that a pm from an admin causes less drama and is more effective than a public scolding from fellow players.

I agree with you there. I'd like to see us move to an *actual* PG-13 world chat. I've mentioned before that we use PG-13 as a guideline, but when it comes down to it the expectation is actually much more of a G rating. In a PG-13 you'd easily hear the "B" word, "A" word, "hell", "damn", "crap", various sexual references and words for the organs, an occasional "s" word and so on. I'm generally not of the mind that the words or references hurt children to hear/read now and then, if the parenting is being done properly; and thus don't believe it hurts the family shard environment. If it was acknowledged as OK to say these words - on occasion and in moderation (and within the codex. Obviously cussing someone out in wc would not be acceptable, as it would violate blacklisting, harassment and drama rules) - then I think there'd be a lot less armchair quarterback-ing going on. I agree that players trying to act as chat moderators and/or live-feed wikipedias is greatly detrimental to the shard and I'd like to see it be eliminated somehow.

[dreamstalker]

I agree with what u both are saying however its the nature of people when given an inch they will take a mile. Rules
Are in place for a reason. Imo they should be enforced (by a +gm) or done away with. My 13 yo girl plays but im positive
She hears much worse from friends and at school
The aforementioned words wouldnt get a rise out of me
In global but when its a blatant violation ( N or F word) ill say something
I would say leave it like it is except making it known if someone violates the
Tos page a gm and let them handle it just my 2 cents worth

[Fiernocht]

I personally would love to see the need for said "armchair quarterbacking" reduced, by said implementation of chat rules, I know I occasionally call people out on these things, but I try to do so in a friendly way. Its just, I see the need to help police the shard because, who else is going to? +colibri is busy all the time and +nyx you +v, and +r are typically busy with stuff. sure you guys chime in and catch what you can but I feel if something isnt quite "bad" enough to report, it should be handled constructivly (IE a friendly, Hey, thats not really acceptable here. or, Hey, the GMs really dont like that *cites codex*) and of course there shouldnt be any drama/debate/argument continued on about it. but thats just my two cents.

[Annachie]

I've yet to visit jail so I'm not sure what completing tasks entails.

Just wanted to make a note re: what rock jail entails. The first post in this thread outlines how the jail works: http://www.uoex.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6976 but please note that the second post is no longer accurate - the codex reflects our current ruleset, for those wishing to reference it.

Maybe, you should put every player in jail at about the 6 month mark. and every one who hasn't actually been there before.

Jut so they can appreciate the place.
If as the post says a task takes 5 minutes, then giving everyone a task shouldn't be too much.

[Wil]

enough for the problem player to learn a lesson.

Where we have seen the best progress with players has been when we have given them 200+ and/or banned them from events for 6+ months.

I speculate that +C worries that these players will quit if punished too harshly, and then the shard will get a bad rep.

more effective punishments

there is a problem and that the staff have (in our opinions) too little recourse for dealing with it.

we are both incredibly patient people

we've got to deal with these repeat offenders essentially causing drama for no reason.

Nyx,

Do you want an honest response to this? If you just want sympathy and support, I'll leave you to it (and hope Colibri is as smart as I think he is).

-Wil

[+Veritas]

Implying that the point of this thread was to throw a pity party for staff?

Tell us how you see it wil.

+V

[ScarletArmstrong]

This is my first post on here. And I decided to register just based on this thread. First of all, Nyx didn't ask for sympathy. I think that you responded to her in an insulting and derogatory manner. Second of all, whether any of the gm's ask for it or not, we should support them. They do a lot for all of us, give of their time, provide fun and interesting events, and find the time to surprise us with gifts. Basically, we all get a lot from what they do. They have earned the respect of +Coli, or they wouldn't be a part of the foundation for the success of this shard. And I appreciate them for all of their time consuming and selfless efforts. And a certain someone just proved why we needed this thread to begin with.

[fixxer1963]

I am just gonna repost this definition.
You can take it as you wil

so·ci·o·path

noun
a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

[+Nyx]

Nyx,

Do you want an honest response to this? If you just want sympathy and support, I'll leave you to it (and hope Colibri is as smart as I think he is).

-Wil

Considering how many of your forum posts are you either expecting everyone else to have empathy for your feelings and to hear you out, or to listen to 'your side' of whatever argument you're making, I find it a little amusing you're now making a passive aggressive post implying it's not OK for the staff to express their side of a situation.

If you had anything of further value to add to this thread, you would have done it. But of course, you don't, and you just feel the need to dash in for a little swipe at me - as usual. It's really getting sad, particularly when you're a hypocrite within the span of a single thread.

Earlier:

People are entitled to safety and decorum. Respect and contempt should both be earned.

-Wil

For those who need it:

decorum
noun de·co·rum \di-ˈkȯr-əm\
: correct or proper behavior that shows respect and good manners

So, you are behaving with a distinct lack of the decorum you previously stated everyone is entitled to. And are doing absolutely nothing to earn the respect you think you deserve from the staff.