PvP

[+Nyx]

I know there's a fair portion of our players who miss the PVP aspects of other shards, but appreciate that it isn't forced on ours. +V and I have been mulling over what to do when we transition the Thunderdome out. It's currently taking up an entire dungeon in my facet, and I want it back. So, we've known for awhile we'd have to move it, and we want to do something new and hopefully more interesting for those seeking casual PVP.

We are torn, however, on how best to implement it. Due to the nature of our shard, with relayers and insta-heal, there is a very high chance if we created an open PVP area that some of the fully geared vets would hang about in there to essentially insta-kill less geared players without any danger to themselves. But, if we force everyone to go in without their gear, we're removing yet another aspect of the game where vets can utilize the gear they worked so hard to obtain, and we don't want to do that at all.

Given that we've been hemming-and-hawing about this for over 6 months now, and I'm at a stage in my facet development where I'm mostly waiting on scripts to be written so I've got time for other projects like this, I figured I'd see what y'all have to say and then work on this in my down time. How would you like to see PVP integrated and expanded on UOEX? What risks are you willing to assume when entering a PVP area? Please note that the ability to loot fellow players' corpses absolutely will not be implemented under any circumstances, so no need to suggest/debate/fret over that.

We look forward to hearing your input!

-+Nyx

[Locke]

I think it's a interesting idea, to implement a pvp area. Your concern about the gear is well based, but player with 1-2 relayers or nothing can always gank stronger player, one para, one poison and the other use is yumi for a exemple. Player fully geared are not invunerable. They only have a better advantage at the beginning. Oh and u can always reduce the healing in that area like in umbris .

And for what u get from that fight, u can always implement a (combat token) drop, base on the relayers difference between the player in that combat, usable on a combat token stone for special item...

Just suggesting, cheers !

I really <3 this shard and what is happening

[+Nyx]

Right now we wouldn't have a way to implement a 'rewards' system for PVP that would not be easily and immediately exploited. Eventually we may be able to get Colibri to script that in, but not for quite some time.

We considered diminishing healing, but every time we do that, everyone freaks out and has temper tantrums at us

[Locke]

but player, just need to think more, we always have heal potion, spirit speak, hit life leech, the healings spell... but i understand you'll always hit yourself in people resistant to change

[Ornias]

It sounds like a decent enough idea. As for more higher end players destroying lesser geared members, I mean it comes with pvp. You gotta expect things like that to occur. Hopefully everyone would try to retain some respect and courtesy. I agree in a way with Locke about diminished healing on some level.

Thank you for all you are working on to improve the shard. It is appreciated.

[Elijah Ray]

perhaps even team based pvp might be possible. perhaps a way to possibly do something faction-like or even guild warring like order/chaos. I know factions and order/chaos wars were not popular with many because OSI never really worked it out well. perhaps though an area on this shard some team based style pvp could be added in.

I also like the diminishing heal idea.

However, overall it might be good to have some active pvp where even lesser geared players could guild/team up and take on geared up vets and take them down. that might even be a way to get some guilds active again. Perhaps even get guilds to work on tactics together and have smaller guild fights among the members to work on what might work in different scenarios against other possible players.


Just thoughts I had from reading the post and comments thus far!

Have a great day!

[Cornbread]

I do not have 30k ED or whatever worth of gear to not have super fast healing. That is imo the worst idea you could ever possibly implement anywhere. I can assure you if it is implemented into a PvP area you will not see me in there. As for the lesser geared player killing a full geared player....good luck. You could be wearing a suit of bone crushers and use a bow with armor piercing arrows and have all the skills in the world and you might kill me given enough time, but I doubt it. I do think pets should be usable, though. No reason not to, none are too hard to kill, just ask the guys who stuck 15 on me at once and my whirlwind killed the two guys almost immediately and before even the pets died. I hate to see it, but I do not see a viable way to make PvP on this shard. As you pointed out +Nyx balancing it is virtually impossible when you have people like me running around.

[assterixxx]

PvP isn't really my thing, but I do see the why many other players love this aspect of the game so much. That it's confined to a single area, only makes it so much better, from a PvE'ers POV. Making it viable / more appealing for the über's and the more normal geared players alike, seems almost impossible to me.

I'm not an expert, but from what I understand, nerfing the bandage heals seems... odd, to put it politely. I only see four ways this could be done:

1) Making the bandies heal less pr. cycle. This might damage "the Cornbreads" a bit, but it would certainly devastate the lesser geared players.

2) Making the bandie require more time pr cycle. But this has the same outcome as the first example.

3) A combination of 1 and 2. This would still have a greater effect on the lower geared players.

4) Let everyone have the ability to insta heal, despite what the players dex is at. This might work, but again, I'm no expert.

On top of that, there are some properties that are considered a must on every relayer. I can't remember what are capped in PvP, but I'm quite sure that EP isn't capped at all. The advantages from wearing a full relayered suit just keeps growing. As +Nyx & Cornbread pointed out, not allowing relayers, would probably have a really bad effect too. "Rock and a hard place" seems like a fitting description.

To end as I started, I can't see it happen - I would love to be proven wrong though(said the PvE'er).

[Mayar]

If I may add my 2gp :
I am aware I cant imagine all the time, effort and resources older players put in building theyr gear ... I can only admire them and may be a little bit envy them(in a good sportsmanship way) and hope one day I will achieve something similar. Thus being said - I dont want to offend others or to sound like I am whining ...

But think about that for a second - this is a highly customized shard - yes - but all this customizations are build around the idea of a pure pvm world.
If/when we can have a place opened for pvp - all these customizations we have, from our pvm adventures, will start to look a little bit odd - for they were not ment to be used in such an enviroment (IMHO). Just to name a few:
dragon-like hp ?! ...
insta-heal bandages o.O ...
heal-spell that works through poison, bleed and mortal strike WTF?!
damage output of a nuclear blast ...
swinging war hammers like a frakin' dagger - yeah sure ...

On some other shards there is a mini-game implemented - called CTF. The game itself is of questionable amusement, but the rules/mechanics behind it are quiet good .There players who enter are stripped of theyr belongings and can equip only base-property armors, weapons and other usable equipment (or you can reverse it - god-mode robe for all and a pocket death star for them and their grannie ) Thus making the team-play and the person behind the kbd more important - like my old guild motto was (on another pvp shard) - bring the PLAYER not the BUILD.
I think something similar will be good to have.
(Now you can unleash the angry mob armed with torches and pitchforks, singing the evergreen "burn the heretic")

I have never considered myself a l33t pvper - I lack the skillz and attitude - but still - wherever I am in the mood for it - I will jump on - no matter the odds ... and hope if I can''t out-gear my foe(most common scenario) I can out-smart him (sometimes even I have my moments).
Whatever rule-set you will implement in that pvp dungeon I will welcome it and will gladly participate.

All I want/hope is that this dungeon will not be arena-like place for duels or pointless group melee - let it be a place from the older days of Feluca - you want that chest opened - but so does Bob(and he dont mind if he had to open your chest first )
you want to hunt that mob for its skin - but Timmy and his merry men behind the corner will gladly skin you first place ...

[Birko]

It's an idea worth exploring. I was attracted to this shard because it stated on the first page, "PvM/RP, no PK • dueling", so while not opposed to PvP, I'd would not like to see any PvP rewards that affect gameplay apart from bragging rights or deco.

It would be interesting if someone could create a forum poll to gauge everyones range of average ping rates, as this used to be an influence upon PvP outcomes. Not sure if it is the same now, but worth testing.
The ingame command is "-ping".

[von Schlagt]

First off I think its wise to establish what the purpose of this PvP area will be, fx will it be:

* Plain PvP
* Guildwars
* Capturing of areas/buildings

and so on.

Assuming it will start off as plain PvP it will probably work poorly vet vs noob, the relayers being a huge part of the problem there.
Lowering heals is not something I think will solve this in the best way - as I see it there is only one way and that is no relayers allowed, no outside gear allowed.
Now, this of course will be a problem because naturally vets will want to use their best gear that they spend good long hrs to get - who wouldnt?
So, the solution I suggest is the following (in no special order and without any real knowledge if its doable scriptwise and such):

* For this to work there has to be some form of rewardsystem, something that works only in the PvP-area ^^. This could be items, pets, gold o whatever you guys think would be right (might be tokens that lets you buy stuff at a stone).
* Rewardsystem could be something similar to the old murder system, killing a player with 'High Fame' will net you a bigger reward than killing a noob wich might not give you a reward at all (noobs need a break at first too right ^^).
* Leaving/Entering PvP-area - you go naked. You have a bank acct or a safe container that wont let you bring stuff from the outside and viceversa. You get a small starting gear/tokens/whatever.
* Inside the PvP area you can harvest/mine/craft/buy/kill others to get better gear (will be an advantage being a vet here, small compared to the relayers I know but still).
* No mobs at all or mobs with no big drops. No tamables, maybe just a plain rideable.
* For guild action there could be areas that you conquer/buy - maybe containg some npcs, crafting stations, storage units and such. Advantages that will be yours for as long as you can hold the place ,-)
* A small crafting station accessible only by players with lower 'Fame' (maybe only unguilded) so that new ppl can craft stuff, this should be a nokill zone but very small. Maybe an npc with limited stuff. The harvesting areas will not be guarded.
* 'High-Fame' players will have to either be in a guild to use the crafting station or there could be some spots to craft at that are unguarded.
* Drops: when you die any resources you had should be dropped. You keep your equipped gear but drop the rest. This is to encourage people to be careful - if you dont stand to lose anything at all, whats the whole point of PvP? You do have a safe container for your stuff other than the equipped so theres not really a big problem losing stuff if youre careful.
* Rares: It would be fun if there were some rares involved, ONE of each kind allowed only - to make ppl stand out =)
Only one rare equippable to stop ppl collecting them, not able to put the item in a secure (to ward off hoarding ^^).
Rares could be gotten by some form of quest or such, Im sure +Nyx with her imagination can come up with something good.

This is just what came into my head right now, Im sure theres alot more that one can implement, you guys all have good imagination so use it =).

Playing PvP requires skill Im sure most will agree to, if you cant just slap uberstuff on and kill anything that comes at you, if you instead have to use every ounce of your skills to combat your foe - THAT is the real challenge of PvP, dont you agree?

Im sure there are alot of flaws with my suggestions, but maybe theres something you can use =)




Regards


- von

[Nagash]

First of all, i would like to say it would be fun to have the PvP facet of the game more present on the shard since
when a vet get enough of stuff (house, relayer, weap, etc) the game can beging to be a little, and i say only a LITTLE, boring.
PvP facet give a complet new challange and endless possibility.
The main point right now seem to be the "probleme" of vet with relayer vs young with out relayer. So why not make two kind of PvP area. The Thunderdome could become a gear provide PvP dungeon with out relayer, so every body would be on the same step and it would be really awesome to see a part of a map, even if its only a city somewhere (for exemple britain in Touria), to be a really PvP area with gear etc.
Again, there would be a probleme there versus Vet with relayer and young with out but, i dont know if its possible, but if you could make in this area, a script for; once you die, when you rez, you are unable to be attacked and unable to attack other player for lets say 1min.. so like this, we can avoid the arrasment agains player and give a chance for someone who want to leave the PvP area able to do it. Again, i dont know if we can do this, but its just an idea.
And yes, i would like to see a PvP area in the map WITH gear.
(if people fear the fact of their head can be cut on their corps, just leave it like it is presently, unable to do it)

[korndogg]

Just some input and a funny scenario. 3 of us were in doom. One char kept hitting Alaskan on accident. We joked, he said try and kill me. I have 2 relayers, and a pretty sweet bow. I died hitting him due to his RPD. RPD will play a major role, so whatever is done. Keep that in mind. I have approx 230 hp and died from him in about 3 hits when I spammed armor pierce.

I totally see how you're beating yourself up over this topic. It's very difficult to balance. Open PVP will be too unfair because there is no cap on how awesome somebody can be. I hate to bring up World of Warcraft style gameplay, but maybe a battleground you can queue up for. This still allows you to run around and do what you want while waiting. However, limit the gear. Each player can have a set of PVP gear, based on their gameplay. Whether it's full plate armor and a Halberd, or all LRC armor for a Mage. When teleported in, you have 30 seconds to change your gear. Any relaters, or unexceptionable battle gear would get thrown into their bank. Maybe limited to only crafted and looted gear. If someone wants to get their PVP fix, they can have it.

[+Nyx]

Everyone has had interesting input so far. Just to explain, though, our diminished healing system works like this:

A player with 'insta-heal' can heal up to, I believe, 4 times per second. If we diminish healing by 50%, that means the maximum one can heal per second is 2 times. It doesn't affect younger players who can't heal that often anyway, it only affects those in the range of 'more than 2 times per second'.

We had another vague thought to do something similar to what we do for events now. Players entering the PvP area would have a choice between using their own gear or using a set of provided, temporary, good-but-not-amazing gear. This would bring everyone somewhat closer to par.

As I mentioned previously, there's no way for us to make a rewards system anytime soon. The problem is that there is no way for us to single out guild kills from actual PvP kills, even inside the PvP area. So, we'd have a bunch of cheating jerks making arrangements with their guildmates to kill one another hundreds of times in order to obtain these rewards from 'kills'. Any reward system would require a lot of scripting, and we have way, way too much we need scripted from Coli before we can even consider opening the facets so this can't take precedent. It can't even take precedent over fixing pets and crafting (those are our next projects after opening our maps).

We could feasibly make areas where there were mobs to kill, rares to steal, etc but again if the PvP isn't balanced enough, then players with full relayers would have it on lockdown.

We could also remove everyone's gear going in, and not provide any new gear. There could be places where it spawned, somewhat similar to the Hunger Games events, but again we get flack for removing another way for vets to utilize their gear.

Even making 2 different PvP areas, one for vets and one for the less-geared wouldn't really work. We have no way to automatically detect which category someone falls into. So, we'd have vets going into the younger player area, and vice versa, with much drama to ensue. Not only that, the shard population is excellent for a free server, but the number of people who want to PvP frequently is a lot lower, and not enough to support interesting and active PvP in two separate areas.

So, you see our problem with deciding what to do

[Alex]

I think this point is key:

the shard population is excellent for a free server, but the number of people who want to PvP frequently is a lot lower

The Thunderdome today, I am unsure of the actual numbers, but I'm sure it is not much used. I would hate to have the GMs spend a lot of time boggling over this and it remain unused. I do think there should a PvP allowed area, since there are certainly some players that enjoy this aspect of the game (of course without losing anything through looting), but possibly keep it simple as it is today.

The idea of having it similar to events where to choose own gear vs. custom gear is interesting. Also the number of fully relayered players with over 500 and 600hp is higher today than at any other point in time (during my 2.5 years on the shard). If newer players and 500hp+ players could be equalized to some degree, and base it more on actual skill and knowledge of UO and how to correctly PvP, I think would be much more rewarding. Newer players can have the equal amount of skill and knowledge, but haven't had enough time to build up their character. Then the custom gear might be a good quick fix.