Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

[KnitePrince]

He has made changes that i do not like, and I have not left. he can continue to make more changes I do not like, and I will not leave... as long as those changes do not ruin hundreds of hours of work and effort on my part. As long as i can still find my ore locations.. as long as i can continue to search out the nooks and crannies mapping and marking them like the craggy old miner I am.
I admit, that there is some merit in making the ores more rare, making high end gear HARD to find, and harder to buy... I will wait, and see what his post explaining in more detail has to say before i start crying and looking for another shard with the qualities of Excelsior Pre Rotation :P

[KnitePrince]

Has anyone yet considered what this would do to the prices of things like the mobile forge and other custom craftables? Can you really imagine mining for DAYS (or chopping wood) to find the plat (Petrified) spots only to FAIL when making the forge or other custom? My current record STANDS at 26 Fails in a row to make a mobile forge... guess who would NEVER attempt to make one again with rotating ores????
if noobs are screaming now because they cost 500K how happy will they be when they cost two or three MILLION ???

[amadman]

KnitePrince - Even though it will most likely will never happen. I am glad to hear you would be willing to give it a try if it did. :)

Man! that is some pretty bad luck you had there on the mobile forge :(

Best i can get it to is 50% chance and I seem to fail a bit more than that too. And it would make this a little harder no doubt. But i think resources could still come pretty quick to an active miner. You could still have know locations to mine at which have not run out yet. With the help of prospector tools and gargoyle axes things could come pretty fast with just a combination of know platinum, electrum and toxic spots.

Colibri also did mention that he may loosen the requirements for some of these custom things up a bit too if these changes are made.

[KnitePrince]

Well, I sat down last night to try to figure out exactly what the difficulties would be, and how bad it would hurt the shard. The hardest part of the equation is determining the amount of dyed in the wool miners we have now, as opposed to those who are going to mine for a while and then give it up. I have no way to know how many will mine after the change. How many new miners will take up the gauntlets and continue even after they reach 120... keeping that in mind..

Over all.. it would seem, that by changing the ores to random.. though I am not quite sure what Coli has in mind for a system.. would "eventually" lead to a more robust market. In the short term.. it will hurt everyone. there are enough stockpiles hoarded by current miners to keep things normal for.. a month, two at the most.. prices may go haywire as soon as the change is made. they will definitely skyrocket after current supplies dwindle.
I also do not know, for instance how much ore Coli will put in each spot. If i have to hunt all day to find a plat spot, or all week to find one, mining four or five hours at a time, will i be rewarded with a plat spot containing 100 ore? or will there be only 10 to 15 ore in that spot? it is hard to make an accurate economic model without knowing.

Even without the intermediate variables, I still see an eventual improvement in both economy, and in the use of lesser ores and runics. The goal will still be to get the good armor, plat runics etc, but because they will be harder to get, more of the "normal" people who are not regular miners will no longer even try. One of the things this appears to do, is re open the mining field to the "miners" those dedicated individuals that actually LIKE mining, because it provides them with more money, and more accurately, the correct amount of money for their intensive labor. What remains to be seen, is if there will be enough of those individuals to take up the slack.
One of the things that will be hard, is that there will be "spikes" in ingot prices. Miners will come and go. When there are abundant miners the prices will go down, when the prices go down, the amount of miners will drop off, and the prices will go back up, causing more people to mine again.
Despite the fact that I do NOT want rotating ores, Despite the wild spikes in prices at first... I have to admit, after studying it carefully, that in about six months it would help the economy.. IF there remained enough people willing to mine. the big IF is the key.

How many miners will mine for the profit? how many will only mine for themselves?

The other problem, is that this will hurt those who do bods regularly. if they like doing bods, they will be paying MORE for their ores, or they will be forced to mine, and search for their ores, rather than going to their fav location. After studying the effects carefully... this will also improve the economy as those people spend their money on ores, rather than trying to find them.
I should also point out, that in the beginning, it will also greatly anger those people that enjoy filling bods. It will anger the miners.. (Like me) that have spent their entire existence marking their locations and building their libraries.. many of us will leave, both miners, and those who like to smith for bods etc..
i have also not taken into account those who lumberjack in this market study.

What it Honestly comes down to, even though it GREATLY pains me to admit it.. is that it "would" EVENTUALLY help the economy. it will take time, because many will leave, some will stop mining and lumberjacking completely..
Like in Mythic's LIVE game.. there will be a sudden decrease in numbers, as time passes, those numbers will return as people who were not part of the original method begin to join Excelsior. they will know only the rotating method, and it will be the norm to them.
i think.. less of them will remain as miners for the long run than do it now, but those who do remain, chopping and digging will see greater rewards, both in ore/ingot prices and in armor/runic sales of other colors...

i apologize for another lengthy post, i have been up all night working this out, and am tired, I hope i didnt miss anything.

Also, despite what I found, my vote remains. i have too many hours invested. too much time and effort to "LIKE" losing all of it, despite the long term results i found. i find myself eating crow for many of my earlier statements after sitting down and working it all out.
I need to go get some sleep.

[amadman]

Thanks KnitePrince! I agree that it would be a little painful at first but good for the shard overall.

As for some of your concerns. I believe colibri stated that there would be around 500 of the specific ore in a vein and that the iron pulled out would not count towards this 500. You would also be able to tell with the forensics skill around how much is left and get in idea of the last time in was mined.

He also stated that it would all start with the current locations be as they are now. So the current spots would be as they are now until they are emptied. This would make for a more gradual change because the less known spots would empty slower than the more popular ones.

[+Colibri]

Just a note on the custom craftables... the resources required to make them would then be changed. Right now almost all the custom craftables require platinum ore. If the mining system were to change, then it would be for example that Metal keys would require electrum, wood keys would require ice, tailor keys would require toxic, and so on... so it wouldnt all be about platinum anymore.

(I mentioned this in a post several pages again, just thought i'd say it again for those who werent around since the beginning of the thread, or dont want to read through all those essays lol)

[KnitePrince]

i find, I am very unhappy with myself for being excited about the prospect of other ores becoming important. I am unhappy with the need to hunt and search for ores every time a spot becomes depleted, and I am unhappy with the impending loss of all the work I have put into my library...
I guess I need to wait on the detailed explanation of the proposal. In theory, this system could mean greater income for me, as a miner/Smith. It will depend on how often and how hard i must hunt for good spots. How often i will pop in to my hard won location and find someone else beat me to it, so that I must move on yet again....

[Tael]

[quote="+Colibri"]If the mining system were to change, then it would be for example that Metal keys would require electrum, wood keys would require ice, tailor keys would require toxic, and so on... so it wouldnt all be about platinum anymore.[/quote]

I guess you're not going to push ahead with the random stuff, but why not implement this other stuff now? We could still benefit from spreading the demand for various resources in the way you mention here.

[amadman]

Tael - Colibri confirms in the following thread that he still plans on posting his proposed changes along with a new pm based poll:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2292

[Tael]

Yes, I knew the random resource idea would eventually arise again in a vote, but I was thinking that this other idea of spreading the value of the different ores and woods, which doesn't seem very controversial at all, might be managed sooner. It's not as if one idea is inexorably interwoven with the other.

[amadman]

Unless the reason its the way it is now is because of how easy it is to gather the resources.

If so then maybe the proposed changes would be what makes this possible/acceptable since it would be harder to gather resources.

[Tael]

You don't need to guess what the problem is -- you can read the first post on page one. It would be mitigated if not largely solved by making a wider variety of the resource grades more valuable. Then it wouldn't matter so much if everyone knows where the plat is (which serious miners can map well enough in a few days by honest means, anyway, so it's not even a big deal).

So again, I'd like to suggest that we just try that instead of something rash and controversial. We can always look at random resources again later if it seems necessary.

[amadman]

I was not suggesting that this was the reason for the change. I was only suggesting that the idea of changing the resources required for custom crafted items could be dependent on the proposed changes being made.

I would like to see the different ores having more use too. But other than the mobile forge there is defiantly no shortage of custom items available in the system we are using now. So the ability to make these items with resources that are more readily available (by even more players) would definitely need to be considered before making such changes.

Colibri could see it differently but I don't see the one happening without the other.

But i am just running my mouth (or fingers) again so.....

[KnitePrince]

stand by for another novel... incoming!

A little bit of the custom availability will be affected by the availability of powerscrolls. As i understand it, you can only do one champ a day now, and you only get one powerscroll??? if that is indeed fact as I have heard, then there are going to be those who get frustrated trying to get those 120's for smithing and mining, either because of the limitation on champs, or because the prices for them are prohibitive. Not everyone is going to get frustrated with it and quit, but the harder something is the more people there will be that DO give up and walk away. people play for fun, not for frustration.
The changes to champs dont effect me personally since I don't do them, it does effect me in that i can't get PS's I want for my daughter, who will soon be playing. While i am available to assist her, she wont get too frustrated, but if I was just starting here, and knew no one, I would get frustrated... in fact even as things were I was pretty frustrated trying to start life as ONLY a miner. it wasnt an easy start. the only thing that really got me going was the organics in the noob dungeon. without those, i probably would not be here, so i am thankful for them.

the entire point, or reason Coli is looking at changes to the mining system, is the code/script or whatever it is that people now have available that can show a player exactly where every ore in the game is.
His concern is valid. However I think maybe over rated, since there are books available to players that already show them exactly where to go. those books have been available for quite some time. however,, that is no longer even a valid argument...

Making new things craftable. Spreading the different colors out, will make them needed, but it will not make much of an impact on prices, in over a year, i have seen prices fluctuate only slightly on all ingots from Dull to Plat.. the greatest fluctuation has been with Iron. I used to pay 8GP ea for Iron I bought, and I sold it at ten. Then came the point that people wouldnt even sell me their Iron at Ten ea.. NOW, I see iron selling everywhere for 15 ea. I no longer deal in Iron Ingots for this reason. Iron sells on the miners for 18 Gold, so people are probably paying the 15 ea price. If Coli dropped the price on his npc miners to 12, then Iron would again sell for 10 ea.
Supply and demand. The best way to really make anything valuable, is to make it harder to get. Thats a fact No one can dispute. What has to be decided, is if making all of the current players angry by changing the system is worth it for his shard.
We all know, that once it is changed, some ppl will quit, many will be frustrated and angry (including me) but those who join Excelsior after the fact won't know any different, and a new generation will come up through the ranks that accepts how it is, because its all they have known here. At that point, ores will be more valuable, more in demand, and thus, more people will be willing to get them.
I argued, that making them harder to get would put people off. there would be less miners. Thats how I felt. My in depth analysis showed me an entirely different scenario.. if there is money to be made, someone is going to jump on the bandwagon and make it happen. there will not be less miners. there may be less immediately after the change because were all ticked off.. but within a few weeks, prices are going to jump. and so will the newer Mining generation.
Despite how I personally feel about it... after researching it.. if it was MY shard, i would want very badly to change.


Making the useless ores needed in crafting will have a minor impact on their marketability, not much impact on their price.
making miners work to get their ores will change the dynamics of the market. Everything crafted with wood and metal will change. Platinum Plate armor will become the goal instead of the norm. Gold Runics, verite, Valorite, Blaze and Ice runics will become items with value again, because they will be cheaper. They will be something a new player can afford, as opposed to Plat runics that can only be had when someone discovers a plat location, AND is prepared to spring those elementals when they mine that spot.
Currently i make 10 - 20 pieces of chest, 10 - 20 legs, 10-20 sleeves... etc.. I sell a few of them. maybe 5 pieces of the 20. With the change, even the less than perfect pieces will sell. maybe not at the same price as those really good ones the runic hammer tosses out, but they WILL sell. NO, I do not want to lose my work, i don't want to have to work harder to find my ores...
BUT, you know what? the more I think about it, the deeper i look, the BETTER I think it would be in the long run if something like Coli is talking about was to happen. He isn't talking about a random change every day, he is only talking about a change once a location is Depleted. A spot with 500 ore in it you can return to and dig until it IS empty.

BOD's--
they just plain stink. people want 20 dull or 10 shadow to get powder of temperment. they want the Val and nearby bods to get the armor of crafting +3, they want the blaze and near bods to try to get the Armor of crafting +5, and they want Plat bods to try for a sharpening blade. Thats IT!!!! Some folks will work to get a colored forge or two. Some will try to get a smithers protector to lock down as a show piece.. once they have gotten the deco items and colored forges etc, they have no interest in doing those Bod's again...
To make the new system, or even the old system better. rewards should also be better. there are three columns of possible rewards. Most use only two of those. I would like to see those columns filled, even if the chance was only 10% with items like;
Armor of crafting +2. +4 in addition to the +1, +3, and +5.
How about a forge that gives a small bonus to the amount of ingots when you refine? there could even be two, or more of them. A small that gives you a 5% bonus. if you refine 1000 ingots it gives you 50 extra. A large that gives 10% bonus.. if you refine 1000 ingots it gives you 100 extra... with a system that changes ore locations, you would find miners hauling their load of valuable plat ore HOME so they could use their bonus forge to get those extra few ingots.. hehehe, yah, it would be a pain, but a worthwhile pain.
All are reasons to do those currently worthless bods. reasons to mine those no longer worthless ingots. People will want them again.
I may not like a change to the way mining currently works.. but, if some of these other things were added into the mix, then it would give me some incentive to keep on keeping on.

[amadman]

Thanks for taking the time to analyze this and writing about it KnitePrince. I could never pull something like this off because my writing skills are very poor.

It sounds like you came to the same realizations that i did though. Initially I did not like the sound of it because of how it would effect me personally. So I voted against it. But the more I thought about it the better it started to sound over all.