Anti-AFK system upgrade

[Tacityl]

While I agree with increasing the punishment for AFK gathering, it seems like we're on a bit of a witch hunt here. And like all witch hunts, it will (or maybe already has) start punishing the innocent far more severely than the guilty. In fact, it seems like we're trying to redefine "guilty" to encompass even more AFK activities. AFK resource gathering has become the current Moral Panic.

I'm new here, so maybe there's something I just don't get. Is AFK resource gathering really so much of a problem that we need to expend already sparse staff resources on combating it? Also, I know some players have an opinion that AFK resource gathering has really screwed up the economy. Maybe it has. But shouldn't we proceed based on hard data, rather than player perception? What precisely has happened to the economy that can be proven to have happened by AFK resource gathering? Are we killing a gnat with a tank?

Increasing the penalty for AFK resource gathering makes total sense. But I would simply vote for keeping the current, reasonable definition of "AFK resource gathering".

[kenarn]

+1 to Tacityl

out of everyone here i think he has put it best

"Are we killing a gnat with a tank?"

[Utumno]

Well as a Active Miner I fully agree with the afk anti-resource gathering protocols.. Understaffed? haha they will hunt you down and put you in jail when it happends. Im not lazy and im not calling anyone out here... but if you dont have some sort of patience, do something else that makes money. AFK anything in my opinion is just plain lazy. Most consider it smart and a tactical aproach at making some bucks in the bank.. Its not.. it IS wrong in more ways then most cheaters and grammar correctivness game lurkers trying to guild hop just they can *Whispers* free load.. (Pun intended hehe)

More like Bugs bunny vs. Samity Sam.. Sam pulls out the shotgun and bugs pulls out the Nuclear missle right away...

All in all AFK resource macroing is bad in my opinon! and should be treated so!

[Asmodean]

[quote="kenarn"]+1 to Tacityl

out of everyone here i think he has put it best

"Are we killing a gnat with a tank?"[/quote]

I think its taking a proactive approach, rather than a re-active one, although I still don't like the idea of being afk checked on my way to the bank :D As i mentioned in my first post in this thread, afk checks mean nothing without strict enforcement of the rules and some kind of meaningful punishment, and [b] permanent [/b]confiscation/deletion of the weapon (in case of weapon leveling afk), or some sort of account wide [b] permanent[/b] wealth removal/punishment for resource gathering.

Also jail time needs to be somehow meaningful, rather than just playing another game for a week, coming back, and repeating.

[kenarn]

honestly i cannot post here without repromanding myself for the simple fact, i have been guilty of this and i will openily admit my mistakes.
but it seems mostly fair for the leveled weapons part (atleast to me) yes, maybe there should be less chances before your weapon gets deleted but, if your leveling a lvl 90 bone crusher already changed, and you get caught and that weapon gets deleted or impounded for good, tell me you wont feel like crud and possibly not even attempt to do it again?

yes thats a hypothetic situation, but it still remains that it is a real life (well real game) situation that happens more often then not.

i do think that a totem like system would be a great idea, but instead of loosing gold or tokens for a set amount of time, make it where the weapon itself has a decreased % of experiance per kill, to make it harder for that person to level, also make it where +10 deeds cannot be used on that weapon until the period of time is up.

[anarchy]

i say video the offense using fraps or something. then post on the forum for the community to decide (jury). then if found guilty do not delete the weapon, BUT put it on auction. :) let him/her try to buy back what the person lost. so really it would be like a fine. i know this might seem like a lot to do, and it's hard for the staff to check up on people, because they are morons (not the staff), but when people see their names plasted on the forums; i'm sure they will stop. using public humiliation stops people from doing stupid things.

auction anything confiscated---gold sink + person could try to buy back lost item.
Jury by their peers, and video to prove
Name on forum as additional punishment.

if you are not going to cheat then you have nothing to worry about. yes, emergencies happen (i know better than most), but like i've said before ALT-F4 takes less time then getting out of your chair in a hurry.

ps. i'm saving my vote.

[Asmodean]

What you said is one of the toughest questions to answer, what if i do something im not supposed to, because something in real life happened that needed my immediate attention? Mom's playing, and out of nowhere kid screams, she needs to see whats up immediately! She shouldn't be punished for that! But the problem becomes, the people who cheat, take advantage of it, and ruin it for everyone else. Oh i had an emergency... the last 14 times i was caught... When does it end?

I don't think there is a perfect solution, because those who take advantage, will always find a way to do so again. I think everyone deserves a warning first, even though you should know the rules by the time your account is created. From there, how many chances do you give people? If they are sincere, i would give them as many as needed, but people can (and do) fake sincerity. People lie, people cheat, people steal to get ahead. And over the internet, its almost impossible to tell who is telling the truth, and who is not.

That's why i feel a system of escalating punishments is necessary. Maybe give people 1 warning per year, or per 6 months (but seriously, how many emergencies really happen in that time? I don't have kids, maybe more than I think). I don't think its people in these emergency situations getting caught most of the time though. Its repeat offenders so i hear from the rumor mill, its the same people over and over and over. And with no meaningful punishment, they will continue to lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead.

I wish we could take everybody's words at face value, but that's not the world we live in. Lets be realistic, and plan the punishments accordingly.

[Asmodean]

Anarchy,

My only question is who is doing these videos? I like your possible solution of auctioning the item, with the gold being removed from the game. Could even have a raffle table or two just for confiscated items. If the staff is doing the video... why would a jury be needed? If a player is doing the video, what if I have you ignored, and don't even see you speaking to me, or why do i even need to answer a peer if i choose not to?

I'm saying this on behalf of others who brought it up to me. I liked Nyx's post about reporting afk levelers using harassment, and them not responding as proving they were afk. It makes it a lot harder to script everyone vs just a name or two to alert you to being afk checked. And theres a lot more players to catch AFKers than staff too. But, what is fair?

I suggested in my other post, a player induced afk check. [afkcheck (target). For instance. could pop up a statue thing, and afk with a question set by staff, changing on a daily, or more frequent schedule, perhaps even random, drawing from a database of questions, editable online by staff, so its never outdated.

Cheaters need to be punished, and banned if they can't follow the rules!

[Crushed]

Great Idea Anarchy. Auction off confiscated good and Exex the resources.

[Ilsanor]

After a bit of thinking I find the auctioning or [exexing the confiscated stuff a terrible idea. Sure it takes the gold out of the game and we all like that. But there is a slight problem - it takes the livelihood from people who do it (level weapons for gold or gather resources) legitimately. If by any chance the GMs hit a mother lode and confiscate keys with 30k of a given ingot and dump it on exex at a reasonable price then what? The legit gatherer has to either compete with the prices (which cuts into his profits) or wait out until the 30k is sold (which can take a long time in the current resource market). Not to mention it's a shady area at best - it's forbidden (in essence) to cheat gold into the economy, but using cheated resources (AFK gathered) is ok?
Same goes for weapons and auctions. Someone, somewhere offers levelling services. If a potential customer buys a (illegally!) levelled weapon at an auction, the leveler loses whatever money he could make. Fair? I don't think so. Make the punishments hit only the offender and not any innocent people that happen to be in the same business.

As for the AFK checks - I'll hold my vote for now. Something needs to be done, but more AFK checks are not the answer to the problem.

[Asmodean]

Well said Ilsanor. I agree with the resources being removed completely rather than being placed on exex.

I have an issue with the weapon side of things that I didn't think about earlier. What if this person AFK levelling, is actually levelling a weapon for someone else? lets you you and I in this example, since its you i am replying to. You find an awesome 5x46 weapon, and pay me to level it for you. I get it up to level 80, after its been weapon changed.... All of a sudden... BAM! I'm caught afk leveling. UT OH! Your weapon is now gone!

How do we handle a situation like this? At least the auction system would allow me a chance to get my weapon back. I don't know that every (or even any) weapon leveler (if they are willing to afk level) would be willing to pay the original owner back for their loss. How do we even determine a price for something like this?

I guess weapon leveling services would go back to a premium cost for trustworthiness among the people doing it. Of course, I think that a list would need to be published of people caught weapon leveling, maybe one step before the first weapon is confiscated. So if it goes warning, 2nd warning/slap on the wrist fine + posting to the naughty list, then confiscation of weapons and heavier penalties.

[anarchy]

there is always going to be collateral damage, let's say he's/she's leveling a weapon for him/her self and get's caught. he/she could say to a friend..."hey say it's yours, and i was leveling for you". If you take away the weapon sell it then there is at least some way of getting the weapon back. the person who gets caught will never get business leveling a weapon for a person again if he/she gets caught. Who would want to risk that?

let's take a rl thing.
Washington (state) is trying to pass recreation marijuana, and it passes. now let's say i give my friend 100 bucks to run to the store to get me some, but he decides to buy from a dude in an alley way (he's lazy like me). he gets robbed, and tells you he did so. well your out of 100 bucks but the lesson learned would be: go get it myself. same as weapon leveling the customer would then learn: do it myself.

With the auction item idea it gives the player who lost by mistrust a way to get his weapon back. do you give people gold in advance for the leveling? could you imagine how much gold could be removed from the game from a 4 x 58 level 58 awesomeness?

people who sell resources ingots/leathers/wood would profit from buying the resource keys on auction. most of the time no one wants to spend the gold on things like that except people who want to resell, and nelapsi. :O

one thing i'm glad about is that we're having an intelligent debate. no one has been flaming so far.

ps. against the resources being put on exex. staff shouldn't put things on there.

[Rune]

i am lvling weapons for others lately and i really want to see what Anarchy posted implentet.
if a lvler is caught while lvling for someone : the employer would maybe think *heck i should have done this myself* and his lesson learned might be :be carefull whom you trust .wich imo is kinda sad

[Ilsanor]

And that perpetuates the oh-so-friendly attitude of "trust no one". Talk about multiplayer when everyone has to do everything by him/herself. Think of it this way: Your car breaks down. You have neither the knowledge nor the means to repair it on your own, so you take it to a car repairman - you have enough money to pay for getting it fixed. While you wait to get it back you find out that the repairman was avoiding paying taxes to the goverment and got his shop seized, along with your car. You get a note from the government: "Be careful who you trust. You should have fixed the car yourself." and no car back. Satisfied? You feel that it's fair?*** BTW, do you go shopping at a supermarket, or do you gather the food yourself by hunting, foraging and/or farming?

The main reason that players offer service such as levelling or resource gathering is that we all have our personal approach to gaming. Some have 2 hours a week available to play and they'd like to spend the time with their friends or doing something fun. But they have the financial means to pay for tedious services. Why deny them that? It's their choice, they shouldn't be punished for something that isn't their fault (AFK levelers are not labeled as such, no one knows if the person leveling is legit or a cheat). Following your logic further would mean that people should be denied to buy anything from another player, forcing them to get it for themselves.

*** Fortunately in RL there is paperwork to prove that the car was not his property. In game there is no such possibility, unless a 'contract tool' is added, where both sides stipulate the condition and it gets saved for future reference. A scary thought, if you ask me.

Anarchy:
"people who sell resources ingots/leathers/wood would profit from buying the resource keys on auction. most of the time no one wants to spend the gold on things like that except people who want to resell"
I made my first few millions selling ingots as a newbie. I think your perspective on resource gathering is a bit skewered, to say the least. No low to mid level resource gatherer can compete with the rich, high-end crown on auctions. They just don't have that much gold available for that kind of investment. And my point stands - if someone buys those cheat-filled keys on auction he won't buy from the small time gatherers. Be it for use or re-sale. If no one buys, they get desperate and lower prices. This means less profits. All in all - the people who can afford the keys get what they want, but the whole 'industry' takes a dive. It'd be nice if Utumno could chime in with his opinion on this, since from what I read he's in the business of gathering ingots.

[Rune]

i didnt mean it that way that we should do everything by ourselves just saying its kinda sad when that way of thinking is put in someone just because they trusted the lvler/gahterer is legit ( if and when it happens)