Luring

[+Requiem]

c. No indirect player killing, such as intentionally causing a monster to go near a player that was not informed of your actions.

There was a bit of discussing on this in world chat, and I said I would make a forum post regarding my stance upon it.

I consider it luring, if you have monsters chasing you, and you run past another player, and then out of range causing those mobs to then aggro on the other player. Or hide, or even sit on the other side of the guy and don't teleport. You get the idea i think. This happens all the time in the Halloween dungeon especially because of the large number of spawns. It didn't happen (much) probably on day one, because everyone was in there at the same time doing the quests. Later on, with less people (apparently some still complained the spawn was a bit light, and Nyx mentioned she tweaked it to increase the spawn rate), it's crowded. Especially when not a lot of people have been killing things.

However, with all this being said, it doesn't matter if you need bats or not, if you run through, and don't kill anything, and drag the monsters on top of someone else, only to then get teleported through the door to the next area or whatever,

YOU are in violation of the this rule.

Be polite. Play nice. Stop and kill the things, rather than dragging them over the person killing the things they are killing. There is more than enough spawn to go around, so help keep it thinned out for the next person, even if you don't need that particular spawn.

[Annachie]

Can I just add, from previous years experience and this years, don't lure them to the entrance.
Already this year I've had a Horseman and multiple vamps sitting at the top of the steps when I've entered.

[Wil]

Where do you draw the distinction between luring and running for your life? I've seen what I interpret to be both in the Halloween dungeon. I would hope you don't have to stand there and die to prove you're not luring mobs.

[Tredin]

Having spent the past two years actively farming the Halloween dungeon I don't really have much of a desire to go back much this year even with the quests and new items made available.

I do however have quite a bit of experience in there and seem to remember that by the end of week two it was usually, but not always only occupied by people that were just rushing the boss spawns. Maybe if you were to turn hiding back on and enable people to sneak again it would alleviate some of this "Luring" problem.

The best solution in my mind would be to disable mounts as well however that would most certainly handicap the people running mule and noble packs if they weren't able to summon or of have their packs follow them inside. I doubt it would be easy to code it so mountable pets are enabled but actually mounting them was not.

Really all it takes is a bit of courtesy on the part of the more powerful players around though.

[Pariah]

Where do you draw the distinction between luring and running for your life? I've seen what I interpret to be both in the Halloween dungeon. I would hope you don't have to stand there and die to prove you're not luring mobs.

Never thought I'd agree with Wil, but I do. You're essentially saying I'm luring unless I either a) have a fast enough connection, enough luck that I don't get stuck, etc. to run past without the mobs detecting me, or b) I kill every single thing in my path to say get to the 1 mob I need for my quest.

That just seems silly. People die in this game. There is blessing, there is insurance, there are corpse stones, there are virtues that literally let you resurrect with no penalty. Why is everyone acting so traumatized by this? If you can't handle yourself in a place and all the entails, then you should play better, understand the risk, or not go to that place. I feel like this is a very slippery slope the way it has been interpreted here. I'll give a brief example. I was doing the St Patrick's Quest, I killed all the faeries and snakes I needed and ran from far from the exit to the exit. Well, those mobs are EVERYWHERE and they are fairly quick. I hadn't attacked them, they just glommed onto me as I made my way out. Should I have to unnecessarily kill at least double the mobs the quest requires on the off chance someone is standing between me and the exit? I had someone who will remain nameless PM me like I was intentionally just trying to make their life miserable because I was trying to exit the area and they couldn't handle multiple mobs. This used to happen to me when I was a newer player. What did I do? I ran, regrouped, or stood to fight and sometimes died. Would staff be to blame if that person was just standing around and mobs spawned by them that could kill them? Instead, we are rewarding or incentivizing that behavior by trying to outlaw something that is a natural part of the game? I just don't agree.

Now, if you're intentionally dragging mobs onto someone else, that is different, but in my mind, there really isn't a way to prove this that I know of (not to say it doesn't exist). In all honesty, because of all this QQing (+Nyx's favorite word), I haven't even entered the Halloween Dungeon, and I likely won't for the duration, which is sad because I love all of the customization, etc. Same goes for the Walking Dead event. Just wanted to give my perspective. Thanks for allowing some discussion on this +R.

[Golden Temptress]

Not something thats common or seen alot of but I have had it done to me, thankfully my 6 little furry imprisoned friends did destroy the stampede of 20 vampires heading my way, I assumed at was a tactic to distract players so they could get the bosses while your hands were full, so I took the approach of politely pm'ing them and asking what bosses they needed for their book and then worked to take the ones they didnt need and vica versa, a tactic that may not always work but worth approaching them head on without accusing them incase it was them running for their life lol

[+Nyx]

Alright, well, I'm already sick of hearing about this crap, so here's the new regime:

- Reduced the number of mobs in the entire dungeon, however the number is still a bit higher higher than it was originally.
- Added functionality to all room entrances, staircases, dungeon entrance, dungeon level gates, and the stairs to the AFK room that will delete any mobs that step on them. This should help prevent large amounts of mobs piling up from being dragged.

From now on, if someone drags mobs because they're exiting or running for their life, I do not consider this luring and there shouldn't be any more QQ about it. However, if someone is repeatedly doing this specifically to you and you have evidence of it happening repeatedly or being purposeful (record a razor packet video and email it to me at nyx@uoex.net, or take screenshots of them taunting you/bragging/admitting/whatever) then I will of course remove their dungeon privileges. If there's no evidence that they are doing it purposefully to troll you specifically, then I suggest you take it with aplomb and chock it up to the fact that some players are inconsiderate wads, and that's life.

[Alex]

Do the quest between 9 and 11am EST (and 12 hours after that) in the morning and I'm sure you will not have any issues of luring, since its crowded and the mob count is very very low.

Not a fan of the changes, because I did not see any luring, just running from one room to another or leaving book 1 mobs for others to kill if one was on book 2 (and vice versa), I only saw complaining from very very few players compared to the players that did not have a problem. I dont think anyone was luring intentionally but the way the dungeon is set up and the way the books are, this so called "luring" will occur. I think another solution would have been to combine books 1 and 2 so that less mobs would have been ignored. Just my thought. I am bias, I enjoy crowded dungeons where I can whirlwind right through everything.

I understand the frustration, but this complaining only leads to a greater need for separation of events/areas, etc. for relayered and non-relayered players, which I think should not occur.

[+Nyx]

The quest books cannot be combined, as they can only have a small number of objectives per book. We do think of these things ourselves, but there are reasons why things get changed the ways they do.

As for spawn numbers, when I boosted them last week I boosted the numbers by about 30-35%. Today I lowered them, but they are still about 25% higher than the original numbers. I doubt most of you will notice all that much difference in the length of time it takes to complete a book.

Edit: Also increased overall respawn rate, decreased the range in which mobs will detect you, and improved spawn ranges.

[jimbo.marshall]

I appreciate the explanation and the time and effort put in to the halloween dungeon +N. You do a great job. i am going to run the dungeon tonight and see if it changes my time any. I am limited on playing time now so the way it was is great. i have helped players when i see them overwhelmed and even invite people to fight the boss spawns when i am the first one there because of the spawn time on them. Never once have i seen a player intentionally luring mobs, in fact i appreciate it when people dont kill what they dont need because it helps me out. that led me to do the same. ive only been on the shard for 6 months and not once have these mobs killed me. it doesnt matter how many there are. IMO this whole subject came up because a few people are asking their computers to do multiple things outside of UOEX while they are playing and its causing them to lag. like i said im not complaining about the spawns being lowered because i havent tried it yet.

[Fiernocht]

actually, this got posted because a few people were tired of others breaking the rules. one person -myself- is only running UO, steam, and easy uo, and I have died several times, even with 3 relayers. I appreciate +N and +R taking their time out to c larify and fix things.

[Fiernocht]

anyways. not wanting to stir stuff up. im dropping this. Thank you Nyx and requiem for both respecting peoples opinions and trying to appease everyone on these things. You guys are great

[robinw40]

I' m new at all the dungeon stuff going on if someone is luring or not if you are going into the dungeon or the walking dead I think speaking for myself that I am luring the monsters to attack me and try to make me a ghost which they do often. That is the fun of this game, it doesn't bother me if someone else decides to do it. It makes me work harder to get back to where I was. I am thankful for all the staff that puts these events on , the players that like to join in. It's a game and a fun one at that. Also the players and the guild's that put their events on make it even better. So thanks to all the people involved for the fun time.

Que

[Pariah]

It makes me work harder to get back to where I was.

I wish we had a like button for this post. Welcome to the shard! I think the massive confusion here is surrounding that word "intentionally." It's nearly impossible to prove someone's intentions. If you are the "woe is me" type of person, you're going to see everything as a slight. If you're the authoritarian type staff member, you want to try and control it to protect others. Maybe because I'm more of a libertarian, I think "Live and let die..." Not to say any of these mentalities are the true and correct one, but whenever we try to regulate "intentions," we run into challenges. I can't speak to the spawn issue as of this moment since I've yet to try out the event, but I will try to this weekend. I will keep my opinion of the spawn to myself as it appears this issue has grated on everyone's nerves and we just need to move on and deal with what we have. I would just say that we as players need to stop foisting our own judgments of intentionality onto others. A fun parallel that happened last night in my house:

Child A: "I wasn't doing anything and he just started choking me and I politely asked him to stop."
Child B: "I choked him because he hit me in the face when I accidentally bumped into him."

Take from that what you will...Also, pity my life with three boys...

[Wil]

I think the massive confusion here is surrounding that word "intentionally." It's nearly impossible to prove someone's intentions.

Howdy,

Courts do it all the time. Literally ALL the time: there are very few crimes which can be proven without proving intent. The legal term is "mens rea."

Regards,
Wil