Questions about the economy.

[TheWatcher]

First let me prefix this by saying please don't turn this into a Flame war. We exist in an open market people can charge what they like.

I have just added a quick poll to see what peoples opinions are.

Reason for my post is that a lot of trading in game involves the use of EDs. As we don't really have a set price I'm interested to see what people thunk the going rate should be.

For example a GOC used to go for 200 EDs. (200x35k = 7mil). Now it takes longer to get, price should invariably go up, as we saw with the PS market. Let's say for arguements sake it now costs 10 mil. Based on 35k per ED we are lolling at 285eds and change. If however the price of Eds are based on 45k per you are looking at 222 eds and change. If the going rate on Eds is now 45k do bios sell for 155 eds?

With a growing player base should that mean an increase in donors keeping the Ed market flat? Or is economic downturns in the RL economy effecting donations?

A few months ago the base rate for Eds was 35k with all mathematics around trades going off that number. Should all future trades be based off a different figure?

Just interested in some opinions here

TheWatcher

[+Colibri]

You forgot to put the option of 20k in there

Anyway, from what I saw the market here isn't behaving like a regular market. It's probably due to bad communication among buyers and sellers. Or maybe it's just that when a person donates, the ED that remain after getting the rewards he/she wants, well they just want to get the most out of it, and they try to sell them at 5k over the current going rate, and apparently there are buyers for that.

Once I get a chance to finish that new Exex, it will be possible to make market orders (buy order, sell order) and all the demand and supply could eventually be in one place, making the price more "real" though i'm not sure whether after that the price will go up even more, or down.

There's also been some inflation in the gold, well some things went up and some things went down in price, but overall I've observed an approx 20% inflation in the last 6 months. (which btw, in the world economy it's a terrible number, but in a small economy, plus a fictional economy, i think is nothing special).

[Efanchenko_MM]

hehe I remember before I had a break about.... 6 months? maybe more the top whack price would be 20k.

I sold some the other day and without even doing anything got 50k per for them...

it's kind of crazy considering before I was selling them for 20k per and I thought wow got a good deal here... lol

So about your post if your talking now, then far as i see it's 50k per, but in a few months time it will just greater so can't really cap it, esp when you have desprate people who have gold

[fingers]

Greetings all,

I tend to compare to EA servers when I want to know if something is expensive or not on UOEX. For an example, last I checked, the gold market was $0.50/1,000,000 on EA servers. Here for 1$ you get 10 Ed's wich are worth, lets say 50,000 per. So if you spend fifty cents, you will get 250,000 gold here (+some bonuses from dyetubs, etc.). vs 1,000,000 gold on EA servers.

So if the gold is equaly hard to get here and on EA servers, I am quite sure that over the time, Ed's will be worth 200k per. But I would even go further, whatever amount of real life money you put in buying gold on EA servers, you are at par with other players because gold is the only currency in game. Here, several huge advantages are obtainable exclusively with ED's (bag of holding, druid book, skillballs, special housing, etc). Therefore, I could see that Ed's cost even more than the 200k per mentionned above.

I am not in a life situation where I can donate, but at some times, i have been playing this game alot and managed to buy several thousands of Ed's with the gold I made in game. I still find interesting that a guy can play for a week, send 200$ to Colibri, and be immediatly richer that 95% of the vets on this server (200$=2200 Eds+20 Dyetubs= approx. 115 million gold). This should not get better if what i said previously becomes reality (1ED=200k+).

But I am going out of the subject here. How much gold should cost an ED? Well I can't pay them with cash, so I voted for the lowest gold amount, 35k

P.S.: I have seen a few Free UO server webpages (some very popular) where the player base is asked to donate. They make it pretty clear though that the donator only receives their deepest gratitude. Maybe something to think about.

[Lust]

Hey All,

** WARNING: Long post ahead. If you choose to read on great! I hope some people share my opinions on the Excelsior economy and/or may be influenced by what I say **

Price for EDs:
In my opinion, EDs are worth more than 50k but are currently trading at 45k (plus or minus 5k based on liquidity). From my perspective, EDs are not a necessity for playing on Excelsior and, consequently, I would categorize them as a luxury good. The donation rewards do make playing UO easier/ more convenient, but for the most part (with possible exception to the relayering option) they are pretty balanced with most of the rewards serving either to add a touch of personalization or save time (the latter of which can be solved through added effort). Although the above digresses a little bit from the topic, I was just trying to reinforce my point that EDs are not a necessary part of the game but should be priced at a premium for those willing to pay for the convenience that they may bring.

As for item comparisons, I think it becomes very subjective when trying to convert items requiring game time (such as GoC) into EDs. When I first thought about exchanging items/gold for EDs, the first item that came to my mind was actually the Item Bless Deed since that is the bonus you receive for donating $50-$99. As a substitute for the 10% ED bonus you receive for donating $100+, you can get 2 Item Bless Deeds for donating $50 two separate times. Although, the gold stone charges 1 mil gold for each deed, I believe the trading price amongst players is 750k each (a 25% discount). Thus, two Item Bless Deeds equal 1.5 mil gold instead of the 10 extra EDs you would receive for donating $100 all at once. This equates to 150,000 gold per ED (if no arbitrage exists), but this seems like an absurd number compared to the price EDs are supposedly trading at today. My logic isn't perfect since Item Bless Deeds are not the easiest item to sell, but any price above 250k (which seems more plausible with many buyers) would equate to EDs being priced at more than 50k.

Excelsior Economy In General
Logically (and rightfully so), people think more players = more gold and demand. However, I think this is exaggerated at least in regards to the supply of gold. How do many new players make gold? The organics quest! But who buys their organics? Other players! Net creation of gold due to new player (minus the gold received from completing the quest) = ZERO. From my understanding, gold is created primarily from monster drops and selling items to NPCs. Unless the increased player base becomes more established in doing these two things then the amount of gold added should be minimal. Also, the more profitable monsters/mobs are likely already being farmed resulting in players hunting sub-optimal monsters that drop less gold. Again I am not denying that there is an increase in gold circulation, but that the effects in my opinion are exaggerated. Thus, I disagree with players who attribute inflation to the increase gold in circulation.

Now comes the other side of the equation for an open economy...Demand. Yes, an increase in players will increase demand and thus, prices should increase since the supply of gold IMO remains relatively flat. However, I believe it depends on what type of good is being sold. Inferior goods (such as 110 PS, moderate equipment and easily craftable goods), should decrease in price because more players also mean more crafters (with one crafter being able to supply multiple players). The price for fixed (items that have cool down periods such as GoC) and elite goods (such as 4x 58% looted weapons) should increase as demand outstrips the ability for the market to supply these goods (attributed to spawn timers and/or very small probability of drop chance). Goods that should command the most gold are limited edition items (such as holiday gifts, staff-created items) as well as trigger items (such as EDs). I lump EDs in this group because for the most part EDs are obtained through donation and for the people that donate it usually means you are committed to the shard.

Personal Opinion on EDs
This is likely to be highly unpopular with most players, but I for one do not think EDs should be transferable. I understand that this would isolate a large portion of players who are unable to donate due to real life circumstances and thus acknowledge that something needs to be done in unison to ensure everyone can participate in the ED rewards. Perhaps the creation of a new Trinsic stone that sell EDs at 100k and buys EDs (including EDs obtained through donation and events) at 50k (all prices can be adjusted accordingly). As a side benefit, this may help drain some excess gold from the economy. I admit I am unsure if this is economically feasible since donations will likely be affected if such a stone is implemented. Note, I am being hypocritical in my idea that EDs should not be transferable since I do buy EDs if it is priced attractively, but I do not believe in ever selling/re-selling EDs.

Conclusion
TheWatcher probably put most of what I thought (in a much simpler and shorter format) by saying: "We exist in an open market people can charge what they like." As for the rest of my post, just ideas kind of swirling in my head about the Excelsior economy with some attention to the ED market. From my first line in the post, I believe EDs are worth much more than 50k, but are priced much lower than their potential value. To end on a slightly darker note, most players (old and new) will likely lose interest in UO eventually and when that times comes the market will adjust accordingly. This is not to say that the departure of players will be greater than the influx of new players but that the economy is dynamic and will sort itself out in the long term. Well thanks for anyone that has made it down here. =D

[fingers]

Hello again!

Well granted that Lust made some valid points up there, i wanted to add food for our thoughs. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that the shard receives enough money to be able to pay for itself and to be available to our community. I am just questionning the system that is called "donation" that we have on Excelsior. Here are my points:

1- According to the legal definitions: "Donations are gifts given without return consideration." and "commerce is the exchange of goods and services from the producer to the consumer." So in the model that we have on uoex, are we talking about donations or commerce? My fear is what would happen if EA (the owners of UO rights) decided to have a look at us and realize that their product is used in a commercial manner? That is why i was mentionning that a major Free UO community, existing since way before UOEX and averaging twice the number of players online, will accept donations to cover the connection and hardware costs, but will not give any tangibles in return.

2- Some will argue that Eds are luxury good and therefore should be more accessible to "those willing to pay for the convenience that they (EDs) may bring". For my part, I beleive everything in this game is a luxury good. At a limit, you could only connect to the web portal, chat with other players and still be part of UOEX community. All the rest is luxury. As I said before, I feel bad when i see a new player (with a young status, yes i even saw that!) selling the 2200 ED's that he just bought and getting enough gold to acquire gear/scrolls/pets/equipment that the other players in the community took more than a year to get, while playing several hours a day.

I hate when I finish a post and I realize that I have been a pain in the neck to some people. I apologize for that and I want to say that the day my financial situation will improve, i promiss to donate every month to this shard... if the reward system is no more there

[madhatter]

There have been 100's of Free UO servers that do the same thing and EA has not went after any of them..why would they start doing it now?..and who cares if a young player has 2200 ED's worry about your self not someone else..if they have the money in rl to donate to the server more power too them..keeps the gm's happy and players are happy to keep playing UO for free.

[fingers]

Wow madhatter,

Now thats a well rounded argument. Obviously, the fact that EA didn't take action yet surely means that merchandising their name and product for a profit is legal and no action will ever be taken.

Thanks for the enlightment.

[TheWatcher]

I was going to say thank you all for the intelligent and respectful way people have debated this topic. Until i read the second last post. I asked people to put their opinions on all things economy not to shoot down other players opinions. You added nothing of note to this debate other than to say "worry about yourself". Please keep these comments to yourself I dont want this topic closed because of petty flaming.

Maybe fingers (polar bear i think?) has a point. Is it fair that a player who has been in the game can become more potent than a vet? If we take the example furthur, they can donate enough to buy all GOC components, buy +10 levels to a weapon deeds and have a full calan style suit for enough donations in a week.

I admit i have taken a shortcut or two. I donated for a relayered omni magus, also for a +5 str and +5 dex cap scroll. (I wanted to run with 150, 150 and 50 ) I also understand that my donations do not necessarily mean I am expected to get something in return. I am happy that I do, but i believe it says something along the lines of "Your donation does not guarentee a reward" in the codex. I could be wrong.

I agree with the point that new players getting organics and selling them to older players is a cyclic effect with the gold, however Mobs are not the only source of new gold into the ecconomy. Bees bring an aweful lot of gold into the economy. SOmewhere in the area of 1.2 mil a week for full set of thriving hives. If we average 20 new players a week thats an extra 20 odd mil a week into the economy. I think the auctions help alot with the economy. As coli stated there has only been a 20% increase in inflation. Not too bad for a growing economy.

EVerything is always going to inevitably cost more. It is the nature of the beast. My confusion is with people for example selling a GOC for 200eds which is based of the old price of 35k per ed. Then selling those EDs for 45k per which makes a net profit of 2 mil for essentially doing nothing. Whether that means GOC now goes for 200eds or 9 mil or 255eds and 7mil Im not sure.

Very interesting debates over economy and I thank you for the intelligent way in which they are presented!

TheWatcher

[ardic35]

First the term reward is a misnomer in actuality they are an incentive. Is it wrong..nope were not forced to do it. it is just a way to say thank you for your loyalty. Should EA be concerned, no, and they have shown there not. Why? sure it there name, its there brand and there product. But lets look at the product has anyone altered to force a donation, like shareware. (sure you can use it free, but you have to pay to unlock the other half of the program). so is there a violation in legal terms? not at all. is there a violation in grammatical terms or in proper word usage? Possibly. Is it a creek or crick. depends on what side of the crick..er creek you come from.

Recently I had a really bad day in Doom, got my but stomped died five time before i could get out, and just as i finely made it to safety one of my brother truckers pulled in front of me. BLIP there went my connection. By the time i was able to get back my corpse had decayed. i lost allot of things. (all my fault forgot to insure them, it was a Homer Simpson moment) by the time i replaced most of what i lost i sold my house and spent all the gold i had. now i walk a bit more cautious when I am down there. Where am i going with this you ask?

Part of building a character and playing a RPG is fear. you spend all this time building creating this really cool person and put them in areas that do really bad things to them. part of the fear is loosing what you had built up and working to rebuild (where am i currently at). Now if i new i could become rich and stay that way then i would have no concerns, i would not be dirt poor in the game because of a mistake i made. i would die and with in an hour or so have it all back, where the fun and excitement in that.

sure i could of dropped a few bucks onto COLI got some ED made my fortune but then why play at all. i would do it for what I could get off the stones. ED are impotent to the transition from cyber economy to real economy which if we want to keep coming back to this Digital "Brigadoon" then we need to keep them. However i do believe there needs to be some stipulations made on them, such as restricting how much they can sell for, or make them non transferable. if a player wants to offload them make a drop box, drop them in the box, magically a check for the amount dropped is placed in there bank box according to the set price. But allowing new players to become immensely rich just after starting is a mis justice to them and to the community in whole. They don't get to go through the growing pains of this cyber life.

A stone to buy ED at first i thought was a good idea but then I had this thought. Gold for me is tight and i am still working on replacing what i lost so i shop, and shop and shop to get the best price. (thought..if i had all the money i needed i wouldn't shop, i would just drop the gold on the first vendore i see. kinda kills competing in the vendor market.) One of the things i noticed which actually chaps my birches is the Spell caster keys. Now if someone would put some regents on them and then turn and sell them is one thing. But to turn around teleport in and collect them and sell them for 3000g empty is preying on the young. who dont know they get them free all by them selves, and of course this to lazy and pay for the convineince. these are supposed to be easy to get and free. I believe this targets new players who don't know they get them for free.

buying ED on a stone would be no different. You pay 250k or what ever to get them sell as many as you can for 300k. most of those players who buy the inflated priced ED will be young and don't know they can buy them cheaper off a stone, and in result we still have the immensely rich, due to the ED. As well as the creation of new gold in the economy from new players running around farming gold. So really nothing changes, the only thing that changes is how we are going about it.

So to recap
is UOEX using EA's good graces, not really
Should ED have restraints to help balance the economy and make young players put in the time, absolutely
Should there be an alternative means to getting them, maybe put on as a drop with champs like PS but not to buy freely to turn around an sell at a inflated cost. ED are important but i dont think they should be a direct influence on the UOEX economy.
That just my thought

[fingers]

The Watcher, you are Da man, yes this is Polar Bear directly from Canada!

It seems to me that the economy is largely affected by the donation system. People might think I am complaining for myself, but in all honnesty, I can't think of something that I don't have that I would really want in the game.

To answer Adrics post, I agree with most of it, but for this: it is mentionned that the rewards should not be named rewards, but more "incentive". I couldn't disagree more with that. A statue of the donator on the shard would be an incentive. UOEX dollars, wich enables to a full class of spells, greater housing possibilities, free skills, free levels on weapons, bless bags with no weight limit, a large variety of player services that you would otherwise not have; and that sells for millions and millions of gold wich would take days/weeks/months to collect ... well I would even say that the word reward is not strong enough. It's a product that is marchandised. I have seen players put hundreds of EDs on their vendors and then attend an auction and outbid everyone...

Well that being said, i wish you all a good night!

[anarchy]

not trying to flame anyone and if you get that impression, then i'm truly sorry.

gold is easy to get here. i make 600k on 10 bee hives at 100k each hive a week. gold is extremely easy on this shard, which i believe should be harder to get. Then once the gold is hard to get you can price eds for something like you said 20k or something. i do believe that relayer deeds should be on the normal vendor stone for something like 10 mil.; that way it's available to all players (not just people that have donated). i've always believe that there should be other ways of getting those nice (and powerful) items. reduce the gold drop template on all the monsters, and reduce the prices on the vendor stones. Not only that but like the rl we're making money but all it's doing is exchanging hands; it's not being removed from the game. auctions help, but then people hunt/raise bees/ sell stuff, and it's replenished again. the minotaurs in labyrinth sometimes drop 10k and is a fast spawn, with high luck it'll drop every time. after sitting there for about an hour i had over 250k.

Should ED have restraints to help balance the economy and make young players put in the time, absolutely

should never force a type of game play on anyone. always should have more than one solution.

Should there be an alternative means to getting them, maybe put on as a drop with champs like PS but not to buy freely to turn around an sell at a inflated cost. ED are important but i dont think they should be a direct influence on the UOEX economy.

that would cause more problems than it's worth...ie... lord oaks. now you have to fight and argue over campers. eds shouldn't affect the economy at all. maybe what he should so is make is so you can't sell them, and that you have to spend them on the stone only. name tag it or something. (hehehe this parts really gonna get people mad).

I have seen players put hundreds of EDs on their vendors and then attend an auction and outbid everyone...

kind of stinks but that's their right as a player to do so.

As coli stated there has only been a 20% increase in inflation.

i think it's because the shard is growing. when i first got here there were maybe 150 players top. now we hit the 240 marker i do believe. so with all the people hunting/raising bees there will be an increase in the economy.

if they have the money in rl to donate to the server more power too them..keeps the gm's happy and players are happy to keep playing UO for free.

totally 100% agreement.

OEX dollars, wich enables to a full class of spells, greater housing possibilities, free skills, free levels on weapons

polar bear much respect for ya, but free skills? nothing for free.


once again i'm sorry if i offended anyone.

[Melkor]

Who cares about the economy? Isn’t that what “they” have been saying for years in the real world, and its worked out just fine so far…..

Heh ok seriously thu

I want to make a comment on the number of ED for a GOC. My thinking is, there are really two economies at play here. The real world economy and the UOEX economy. While items in game are demanding more in game gold, it seems the price of GOC in ED is staying pretty even. I’m thinking because in RL people feel that $20 is max price for it. So the real world the economy hasn’t changed enough to get ppl willing to pay more then they did before. But in game economy has changed enough that ppl will pay 50k for 1 ED. Meaning the value of a GOC has gone up to 10 mil. (by selling the 200ED) The part about GOC taking longer to get, that is due to the cool down time for turning in gems, so it's really no more work, you just can’t get as many gems as you did before. I think it’s a good idea because it will help protect the price of the GOC, who wants a shard flooded with those gems anyways?

ED’s are great IMO. Here is my take on it. I played UO very hardcore about 7-9 years ago for about a two year period. I certainly played too much. That shard the skills where much harder to raise then here, and I worked them all up. I become a vet on the shard and playing was tons of fun. I was 21 or 22, living at home, done college but only working part time. So althu I played too much, my life was setup in a way that I “could” put that much time into it. I then took a many year break from UO and re-started here. Now I’m 31, married, have twin boys that are just over a year old and work full time for the Regional Gov. Now, while I still play “too much” its no where near the time I did before (thinking about the 36 hour run I once did lol) My time is obviously much more limited now than it was before. However my cash flow situation is much better. So, shortly after getting myself established with a house and some decent armour and pets. I said to myself. I have “put my time in” on this game, I’ve spent the time struggling up through the ranks. Why not make a donation and give myself a boost. When I played before for about 2 years, I never donated a dime because I was one who couldn’t afford it, now I can, and if I can and am playing regularly, then it falls to me to donate so the people who can’t afford it, can still play on this great shard. So yeah, ED’s are great. Encourages donations, enjoyable by players, saves marriages (lol just joking about the last part)

[Lust]

I'm delighted that the discussion is still pretty healthy and productive. Regarding the term reward vs incentive, I don't think the name is that significant so long as we all understand what we are all referring to. Again my post is quite long but the more I think about it the more I type. Hopefully the titles will help those that prefer skimming my post.

Influx of New Player and Beekeeping
I didn't really want to mention beekeeping in order to prevent other players from hopping onto the inflation train (hehe so I was being a bit selfish) that is why I left it a bit more ambiguous and said "selling items to NPCs." However, we should also note that not all new players have the desire to start beekeeping or have the ability to maintain their beehives. I would consider beekeeping more of a chore which would divert your attention from the more entertaining aspects of the game. If you're a casual player that has 1-2 hours a day or perhaps a weekend player then you may opt not to take up beekeeping or even have the ability to tend to your bees every day. So perhaps out of the hypothetical 20 new players perhaps only 5 of them will start bees. Still some moderate inflation, but not as terrible as what one may think.

New Players Selling of EDs
As for a new player becoming instantly rich through the sale of EDs, this is part of the reason why I believe EDs should be account bound and not transferable; however, since this can easily turn into a flame topic, I think it's best to leave it at that unless someone wants to start another discussion thread. But I would like to mention in their defense, that their contribution to the shard does help the staff maintain the longevity and stability of the server which benefits all players.
*Also just a quick response to ardic35's comment regarding reselling EDs at a higher price resulting, I believe making EDs account bound would solve this issue.

ED and GoC Conundrum?
Getting back to TheWatcher's initial incentive to starting this topic, the GoC debate of why the GoC remains 200 ED while the gold amount can vary from 8-10 mil. It definitely seems irrational, but perhaps can be explained in part by the ED's stability. The value of EDs is pretty stable when you peg it against the donation reward/incentive rather than gold. 600 EDs today is likely able to buy an Omni three months from now whereas the value of gold (at least for transactions amongst players) appears to fluctuate much more in the same time period. Thus, instead of adjusting the ED amount for trading goods, we're actually adjusting the gold amount since we're comparing how much gold it takes us to buy shiny item X. Well that's probably my best shot at answering that conundrum, if I can come up with another explanation then I'll post it.

Suggestions for Curtailing Inflation
I think it's great that the Staff hosts auctions to drain some of the excess gold in the economy, but perhaps there are additional measures that may be implemented to further preserve the value of gold. Some suggestions:

- Increasing rent for apartments
- Imposing a periodic (weekly) housing tax
- Imposing a transaction cost to the seller of any goods over a set amount (such as 5% for any transaction over 500k)
- Increasing the charge rate for vendors (includes weekly rental contact if you have vendors in TC or MZ, but I am also referring to the percent vendors charge based on the price of the goods carried on the vendor)
- Increasing the cost of goods using the custom stones (corpse, pet retrieval, and the Trinsic stones).

Unfortunately, there will likely be a large backlash if any measure is taken to curtail inflation but perhaps these suggestions can be noted for the future in case inflation gets completely out of hand. Also, as to not punish the newer players who have yet to make sufficient gold, perhaps some of the basic services (such as the custom stones) can be scaled to monthly account age and then capped once you reach something like 3-4 months (as to not punish the older players).

[anarchy]

- Increasing rent for apartments
- Imposing a periodic (weekly) housing tax

awesome idea. I played on a shard that imposed a housing tax. if you don't pay it your house decays and finally makes the house go poof, which is cool for us. muwhaaa house drop RAWR.

- Imposing a transaction cost to the seller of any goods over a set amount (such as 5% for any transaction over 500k)
- Increasing the charge rate for vendors (includes weekly rental contact if you have vendors in TC or MZ, but I am also referring to the percent vendors charge based on the price of the goods carried on the vendor)

people will just raise cost and it doesn't get rid of the gold it just changes hands.

- Increasing the cost of goods using the custom stones (corpse, pet retrieval, and the Trinsic stones).

excellent idea, it reduces the gold in the game, and it forces people to think "maybe i can make it cheaper", which then makes a more marketable item in bulk.


GoC items, well for the last 2 weeks now i have not been able to put anything (lesser gems or reagents for the lesser gems) and i don't know why. i paged a gm and he/she said colibri's working on it. so i left it alone, but then i hear other people talk about how they are selling them and making them, that it makes wonder maybe my character's just messed up.