PvP

[assterixxx]

Thanks for clarifying the heal nerfs, +Nyx. That makes a lot more sense then my assumptions, and if I take it at face value(without doing any math), it doesn't sound like it would hurt the übers that much, but still give the lower geared players an ounce of a fighting chance.

The idea about providing some temp gear however, sounds amazing to me. That way, those of us with few(or zero) relayers can mix and match to get up to par. On the other hand, what Alex said made a bunch of sense too. Everybody loves updates, and more options are always good. But if the reality of the PvP revamp, is that nobody will use it(or only a dedicated few), is it worth all the hard work?

On a side note, Birko made a good point on the PvP rewards(assuming there will be some). When I saw the front page first time I thought: "Yay, no noob-hunters! No more 'only carry 4 of each reg, so I don't loose it all to reds'!" I don't think I'm the only one that were drawn here for the lack of PvP. So please don't have gameplay altering rewards, that (most likely) a big chunk of us won't strive to get - when that time comes.

[Devlin]

There's no real easy way to balance to issue of those with relayers vs. those without. Taking away gear will incite riot. Putting a limit on healing will make people cry; even with it (nerfed healing,) having twice the HP of someone is probably enough in a 1v1 (although it should be noted that gear does not equate to skill.) There's also the issue of people with sexy level 100 weapons vs. those running around with just a decent crafted. Even with the cap on spdmg, being able to hit 8-10x with double strike/shot with 3-4 hit spells on the wep can probably one/two shots some players. The Triple Champ Events have weapon AoE hits disabled (unless I'm mistaken); whatever area PvP is put in on could have hit spells disabled. Although this, I'm sure, will cause plenty of QQ'ing as well.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the gear strip/assigned gear. There's still the imbalance of stats, caps (both +stat scroll and +to stat cap), skills, and pscrolls to deal with. This would also mean that PvP would be confined to a single area, or just a few. I think the appeal of PvP to most would resemble the random encounter aspect that was associated with Felucca in days gone by. Restricting PvP to one or a few areas takes out the fun in my opinion.

My input: Enable factions. There's a thread around here somewhere, where I've argued the benefits/how to execute it. Here's the TLDNR version: Joining Minax/SL, etc. signifies the players intent and willingness to engage in PvP. This allows for those who don't want to engage in PvP to refrain. The lack of an FFA type system means that not only will teamwork be used, but will be essential in order to kill uber players (two-three lesser players can easily take out someone with 500+ HP.) Get killed? Call your friends up in Faction Chat and go seek your revenge. Potentially alleviates any concerns of one player dominating an area, griefing, etc., without the need for any coding/fail safes. Adds new aspects to whatever area Factions are enabled in (e.g. Champ Spawns can now be contested/controlled.)

Whatever is done, I'm all for some PvP. I say nerf healing, disable hit spells on weapons, and introduce something that means PvP won't be FFA but group based in some manner. It also must be voluntary and not be implemented across an entire zone/area (unless, of course, it was through Factions. ;P) Those upset that they might see their gear nerfed really shouldn't be concerned; you didn't get the gear to PvP, nor are you required to engage in the activity. Also, +1 to Birko. Whatever PvP comes about shouldn't be for deco/gear, but fun/bragging rights.

I was attracted to this shard because it stated on the first page, "PvM/RP, no PK • dueling", so while not opposed to PvP, I'd would not like to see any PvP rewards that affect gameplay apart from bragging rights or deco."

[seoman]

The balance issue won't ever be fixed, it's just impossible to even out long time players from young.


So why bother?


It's PvP and it's BY CHOICE.

Design the area, maybe make a copy of Felucca as it is now, to be CONSENSUAL PVP.

That means YOU CHOOSE to engage in PvP.

If you're young and have no relayers and enter that area, it's no one's fault but your own.

No one forces you into that area.

As long as there are no special rewards or incentives to enter, then people enter the area by choice.



I think we're spending too much time on the issue of balance. It's not being forced onto a player, it's by choice. So if I'm weaker then others in that area, it's my own fault for going in there and getting my ass whupped. No one to bitch to but myself. It's like if I'm young and have little in the way or armor and skills and choose to enter Destard. When the dragons kill me instantly, it's my own fault for going into that dungeon and taking on a risk that I'm not equipped/ready to handle.

Make sure there are plenty or warnings that it's "at your own risk" and just let it go.




If no one goes to that facet, then increase resource gathering or gold drops from chests/monsters. But not something rare or can only be acheived on that facet, because that takes away the choose aspect.



aAs long as it's by choice to enter that area, balance isn't an issue

[Xavian]

As long as there are no special rewards or incentives to enter, then people enter the area by choice.

If no one goes to that facet, then increase resource gathering or gold drops from chests/monsters.

Hmm.. Contradict yourself much?

It would still be a choice to enter. Just like it is a choice to enter Fel Wrong, Umbris or S'Gail..

[SOL]

Can you enable the guild PvP functions
but create a player opt-out toggle on the guildstone?

That would enable the faction-war and guild-vs-guild war fun, any facet, but still have non-pvp protection for all players.

---

The Thunderdome for a mage is like sending in a canary to a roosterfight btw...

[Omeni]

how about something as simple as a being able to flag yourself as willing to pvp or not, turn it on when you want to and off when you dont want too, maybe pump up the guards so that if your in town and pvp then you will get ganked by guards

[seoman]

As long as there are no special rewards or incentives to enter, then people enter the area by choice.

If no one goes to that facet, then increase resource gathering or gold drops from chests/monsters.

Hmm.. Contradict yourself much?

It would still be a choice to enter. Just like it is a choice to enter Fel Wrong, Umbris or S'Gail..

Not really contradicting, since I still make the choice rather I want to go resource gathering there like make the choice if in Fel now. I don't consider resources as special rewards or incentives since the exact same stuff can still be gathered in Trammal.

Special rewards and incentives would be things that are only available in that one facet, which means you NEED to go in order to get them.


And yes, it's a choice like any other area in the game, which is why I'm not seeing it as a big deal. So the young and old are out of balance. The young don't have to participate.

[seoman]

Can you enable the guild PvP functions
but create a player opt-out toggle on the guildstone?

I think that would get confusing. Which guildies are in on it and which aren't?

And I could see that being exploited. Have a guildie "opt-out" and act as bait, when the opposing guild takes the bait (tries to attack), the rest of the guild surprise attacks.

[Locke]

faction war or guild war could be a alternative to balance str , almost every guild have a uber player or two (meaning with relayer)

[Unbeliever]

I'm really impressed by (and appreciative of) the amount of work you've put into enhancing Exclesior lately!! Thanks +Nyx! I have no doubt that it's all going to translate into more players on the server very quickly.

About PvP itself: Let me start by saying that, for one, I haven't been jonesing to see PvP here. I'm not one to glorify an ugly past and remember things as being better than they actually were. Before I came to Excelsior I didn't love UO; I loved what I wanted it to be and thought it could be. Fun, not grief. Voila, you've fairly nailed it here and are diligent in staying on top of it. PvP has always been the same way for me. I've always liked what PvP "should be" in my head and only very rarely ever has been in practice. Sore losers and sore winners almost always ruin it for me. I think 99% of the mature PvP I've taken part in has been at small, organized player-run events such as "Friday Night Fights" on someone's tower roof. Outside of those I've either PKed solo, fought people trying to PK me, or fought in CTF or other server games and win or lose, people are always talking trash. Factions were no different than any other style PvP except for the special perks; same old ganking and trash-talking. I dearly hope that overworld PvP in any form is not being considered. I hate drama but love the players here; definitely not looking for a reason to get ill with anyone. I can see that this is a real goal that you're interested in implementing somehow and I'm not dogging it. Based on what I've seen in my six months here I wouldn't dare try to gauge the full scope of your creativity. I'm just sharing my thoughts and experience and hoping everyone's input leads you down the best path.

+Nyx, you see the problems with the human condition 20/20, Thank God. But it sounds like you want to eliminate the possibility of cheating/griefing and provide fun for all and give no one a real reason to complain about your final product and I just don't see how that's possible. I defy anyone to name a full-PvP UO server that I can't visit and find dozens of forum threads of players there complaining about the PvP. It has always been that way on every server. They want it easy and they want to win and since everyone can't win at PvP or have an easy time of it, there will always be angry, unhappy PvPers. I think it would be more realilstic (though not necessarily any more desirable) to face the fact that some players will be unhappy no matter how it rolls out, just do the best you can and accept that you'll never please everyone. Beyond that though, I instantly fell in love with the 'Hunger Games' idea and I would try out a few rounds of that against my better judgement. In fact, I can't think of ANY other way to really 'balance out' PvP between uber-vets and weaker players. It's not something that I've ever seen as an issue anywhere else; it's usually just understood that newbs shouldn't be PvPing pros unless they're fine with getting dirted. But I understand the disparity between the haves and have-nots can be greater here than on traditional servers and you'd want all types to be able to participate. Personally I think the Hunger Games idea is a slam dunk but if you're looking for something else as well, I have this. [Maybe not doable here but might spark a creative idea?] I played Halo 2 on Xbox Live way back when and it worked through a ranking system. I forget the exact details but basically players had levels that were determined by wins/losses and the levels of their opponents. You would only be placed in matches against people who were (roughly) five levels above or below your current level. So, slowly, you'd eventually fight your way into the exact level of your personal skill (unless you were naturally good enough to get to level 37 or so, where you started encountering the modders... :/ ) and not end up on either the receiving or dealing end of extreme mismatches. Would it be possible to do something remotely akin to that here? That way no one would have to be nerfed or amplified because they'd always be fighting on farily level ground. Of course, in Halo 2 you could still set up a private match with anyone of any level if you chose to do so. Don't know if you'd want to allow that as well.

Good luck with this!

[+Nyx]

I'm really impressed by (and appreciative of) the amount of work you've put into enhancing Exclesior lately!! Thanks +Nyx! I have no doubt that it's all going to translate into more players on the server very quickly.

Thank you

I think 99% of the mature PvP I've taken part in has been at small, organized player-run events such as "Friday Night Fights" on someone's tower roof.

You just reminded me of an idea we tossed around before implementing the Thunderdome, which was essentially a rentable PVP space. A player/guild could pay a fee to rent this private island/space for x amount of time, and then ticket-in whomever they wanted to pvp with. It'd allow for a lot more interesting player-run events (such as your Friday Night Fights), and put the responsibility on the player. We'd get less QQ complaints, and less trolling, since the player in charge is only letting in people they allow, and those players consenting to PvP. This doesn't allow for as open/free a pvp environment as I think some would like, but it's a bit more of a happy medium given the nature of our server. I could also consider opening a place like this, as well as a closed off area (one of the islands, probably, since T2A is too large) that is set up Hunger Games style, sort of a permanent event. It would also be very similar to the "banished naked to felucca" alts some folks have been trying. Players get stripped going in, there are resources to farm, to craft items to wear, but there are monsters and fellow players to avoid/do battle with.

Hmm. I'll keep mulling it over, but I think that the combination of those two solutions might be the best way to integrate more PvP options for Excelsior without as many of the drawbacks previously mentioned.

[Birko]

.

I could also consider opening a place like this, as well as a closed off area (one of the islands, probably, since T2A is too large) that is set up Hunger Games style, sort of a permanent event. It would also be very similar to the "banished naked to felucca" alts some folks have been trying. Players get stripped going in, there are resources to farm, to craft items to wear, but there are monsters and fellow players to avoid/do battle with.

If an island is possible, I suggest the Isle of the Avatar, commonly known as Fire Temple Island.

It is large, has all resources and with peninsulas that can be secured by land and fought for strategic gain.
The middle temple could be the prize, and easily respawned by staff with critters to change the difficulty without affecting the whole island.


One downside to be aware of is that some treasure chest locations may fall into a PvP zone, as well as the dungeon Hythloth.
Not a big problem, but needs to be considered. (THB's on below the image are treasure chests)



If a PvP battle area was to evolvle, I suggest:
Sea platforms with high cost rentable gates. Guilds could amass in one location, and make landfall to run around Cornbread and Dramoor May be futile, but fun. And that is the point - fun!

[+Nyx]

These areas wouldn't affect any normal gameplay. We have an event facet that is a copy of fel/tram to use for such things. So any PvP areas we open will be on this event facet, and though the location will be familiar, it won't be something that takes up space any regular player could reach otherwise.

[SOL]

I totally stopped my roll when I read and agreed acknowledging the exploiter case,

And I could see that being exploited. Have a guildie "opt-out" and act as bait, when the opposing guild takes the bait (tries to attack), the rest of the guild surprise attacks.

and just now remembered the faction flag system on the guildstone. You can change the guild to order, chaos or none, but there is a 7 day waiting period between changing flags. Great safeguard against flag change exploit.

which is why

how about something as simple as a being able to flag yourself as willing to pvp or not

in tandem with a 7 day waiting period is an even better idea. Any person, guild or not, could say

I may be killed by another player.
I may not be killed by another player.

Choosing for his/herself their PVP status and creating a 7-day flag change period before they can change their mind.

All players come in non-PVP during first 7 days.

Someone above said, that PVP can be a little disturbing to peaceful players. I agree.
Is it possible to set towns guards to escort dueling players out of guarded-zone limits, or jail?

[Gaara]

Either there needs to be very clear areas where PVP is allowed or the option to be or not to be able to PVP (cannot attack & cannot be attacked, this would be nice to be set up for guilds too :p)