Economic Downturn

[Unbeliever]

Pariah, I don't believe that +Nyx's latest post was really about pets at all. I think it was much more about veteran players giving newbs too much power and not enough perspective and the negativity that usually ensues from that. I really didn't know it was that rampant... I've seen a few OP very young players but I just assumed they were family or rl friends of vets, not that guilds were giving away the farm to any new player with their hands out.

Regarding your take on pets, I disagree. Is it okay to have monsters that are tough on pets or immune to tames? Sure. Is it okay to have events where no pets are allowed? Sure. But I don't believe it's okay to create a permanent elite tier of monsters that automatically invalidates the tamer profession. Killing monsters is what pets do. There is virtually no reason to own pets at all except to ride them and slay monsters with them. Why would we want to remove their ability to do exactly what they are meant to do in such a broad fashion? 220+ dex melee is a great goal to aspire to here but I don't think it's meant to be the only way to roll above a certain point. In fact, I'm sure some very high hit point monsters would be extremely tedious to kill without using pets.

The pets in the example given are just a means. The problem isn't the means used, it's the cause and the end result. The cause is insane giveaways, the end result is boredom and/or conflict. If veterans were giving away 220 dex gear and 4x46 whirlwind weapons to noobs it would result in the same problem.

Taming is as valid a monster-fighting method as any other. In fact, unless there's some EUO script I don't know about it requires a lot more work than a Consecrate/swing/heal script. I followed the 5 mule/balron wisdom of the time and quickly discovered that I wasn't prepared to heal fast enough if a paragon spawned. I got 4/5 mules KO'd several times. Also had some bite the dust in Twisted Weald, Umbris area, to a Dread Mare... They lose stats a couple of times and it becomes cheaper to buy new than repair the used. All in all I'd guess I dropped several million on maxed mules before I figured out how to keep them alive. It was costly and difficult and more than a little frustrating. I doubt that every noob and their sister has it all figured out from the word "Go!" even when they're given freebies.

To further narrow the definition of "veteran" and further drive people towards a single playstyle would be at odds with most of what has been discussed here. My main is at the point where I can heal through and whup about any non-unique monster 1v1 with the cleaver I'm leveling and I don't even have 220 dex yet. But if I decide to take a break with it and let my 4 nobles + 1 mule do my dirty work for a while, does that make me less of a veteran?

[P.S. I'm VERY thankful that pets were usable in the Valentine's event ]

@Dramoor - couldn't agree more. If a player wants to call out champs, Mazel Tov. I don't think it's mandatory, anymore than it's mandatory to group Lady Mel or any other spawn. Some people are group players. some are solo, and I respect both. You share quite a bit of information freely on the forums; you do your part to help the Excelsior community.

And this:

To be fair. I agree with this for the most part...but what you going to do when they just decided to use a pathfinding system on EUO or just move one at a time long super STEAM/Razor setups....Removing one always creates another.

True. The absolute root of the problem isn't flaws in a system or the means by which people cheat, it's the fact that they desire to cheat and look for ways to keep doing so. But you have to do what you can + keep fighting the good fight. Also, it's no longer possible to use a walking macro in Razor without getting insane lag.

[+Nyx]

Indeed, pets aren't the problem in and of themselves. They have problems, but that's a whole other barrel of monkeys for the staff to deal with when the facets are done. The problem I was highlighting is the attitude of entitlement.

Ayik, I did not say, nor was I implying that you had done any of those things. I was addressing your post directly (to avoid confusion in a reply that was addressing multiple posts) in order to explain to you how often this bad behavior is happening and why. Your description of the incident seems like it's possible the other player was violating the rules, and as such I've sent you a PM on the forums as well as in game to request further information so I may look into it personally. If there was rule-breaking going on, then that player needs to be reminded that they aren't above said rules.

[Pariah]

I disagree on the pets scenario in terms of costliness. Get a 110 lore/taming scroll for a couple hundred thousand (which can be made fairly quickly as new player) and you're off to hunting ballys or what have you. Notice, I ended my post with pets not being the problem so much as content, player attitudes, etc. I do think pets contribute to the state of these issues though (i.e. player attitudes, access to content, etc.). I used pets for quite a while myself. I think that you're right in that we shouldn't be so narrow minded as to think one template (220 dex) is the only way to play. However, if I have to spend 250 EDs (for dex cap) plus bat wings (2 mil), Jackal's (2 mil), jewelry, etc etc to fight something that a tamer can do wiith a few hundred thousand within the first day, it creates an issue. I think there should be more cost and time associated and invested in taming with a better path laid out and this would have a net positive effect on the economy. Again, this is speculative, but something like slowing down pet progression and gains, making a more diverse path to max your pets, earning additional followers through time and experience, etc etc. Those are just some random thoughts (read: opinions) from the top of my head.

[scuba]

I think as far as finding weapons to re-layer if you want the best you get the best, If lvling deeds were able to take the strength to 10 it would make bone crushers pretty weak re-layers compared to some of the other options out there in my opinion

as for the younger players go taming if you cant afford re-layers there are lots of areas where pets are just as good as a set of re-layers and no pets one of my real life buddies plays along side me in any of the areas i hunt he has zero re-layers and he uses his pets and i i use my re-layers lol he usually even gets the higher ps if we do a champ

[Kevan]

Saying Balrons are intended for higher end player gold farming while providing them with a nearly non-existant barrier to entry is just asking for trouble.

Contrary to what +Nyx stated, even average-skilled new players who briefly peruse the forum before playing here can begin doing balrons within 2-3 days of starting on the server with no handouts from other players whatsoever. Ignoring the other, more profitable ways of making gold early in a player's server life: a player who farms organics and kills elementals or something similar in between the organics quest can easily afford a 110 animal taming scroll and a pack of average mules/nobles within a few short days, which will smoke balrons with ease. Hell, starter mules/nobles can also beat up on Lady Mel and Travesty pretty easily as well, provided the player has sufficient healing skill levels and mechanical proficiency to keep them alive.

If you want to keep balrons for veterans it has nothing to do with handouts. You either find a way to prevent players from getting mules/nobles so early, find a way to keep pets from being effective on balrons, or remove balrons entirely as a source of easy income for vets and change that source entirely to something that has a barrier to prevent new players from using it efficiently.

There's a plethora of information on this forum that will steer new players towards balrons very quickly and handouts by other players are not necessary to do so.

Regarding the other economy issues: in many games the issues regarding low end items here are attributed to what we called "mudflation." In essence, as time goes on, the player base itemization curve shifts further towards new players being similarly equipped to veteran players because of the abundancy of the items in question. If bone crushers had a lower drop rate, for example, then the price on them would escalate to the point where newer players would be forced to consider more relayer options because the price point would not be worthwhile for the few extra HPs (I don't personally believe the extra HPs are even worth it now). An example of this, though, is the titan's hammers. Even longtime vets will still relayer a BC instead of a titan's hammer, because a titan's hammer is not a reasonable goal for them due to their drop rate and subsequent pricing. The cost of a BC itself is not prohibitive and the supply is not rare enough to discourage people away from using them in every slot.

[Melkor]

Contrary to what +Nyx stated, even average-skilled new players who briefly peruse the forum before playing here can begin doing balrons within 2-3 days of starting on the server with no handouts from other players whatsoever. ..... Hell, starter mules/nobles can also beat up on Lady Mel and Travesty pretty easily as well, provided the player has sufficient healing skill levels and mechanical proficiency to keep them alive.

I see this problem being what I mentioned earlier. The shard is set on "easy mode" Don't get me wrong, i love the shard with all it's cool customization. But I never understood why the monsters were set so easy. Its a two part problem. Monsters are crazy easy, our gear is crazy powerful. Even a player with some crafted armor, maybe 2 GOC parts and a yumi with ML spamming specials can go around almost everywhere worry free. Or throw pets into the mix and you can do pretty much everything in your first week or two. There is very little "challenge" here.

Balrons are considered for Vets because what else is there that is difficult to fight? Not much. And even then, a player with 220 dex and a couple relayers could have 10 balrons on them and just stand there healing until they run out of bandies, and with bag of holding, that can be a long time.

I know the staff is concerned about making too many changes. But I'd like to see ALL monsters get a serious bump in Hit points, resists and the amount they hit for. I'd like to see pets damage nerfed in huge amounts. Insta heal is ridiculously overpowered, it should be like 5 second bandies, or more reasonably, 2 seconds. I'd also like to see these new facets be fun, financially rewarding and difficult. I know none of this will likely happen, save perhaps the last point about the new facets.

[+Nyx]

lol, I love how when I point out that a certain area isn't meant for very young players, the general response is "well then make it so they can't go there", yet if we tried to actually remove the balrons and only have them available in touria/elysium, the proverbial poo would hit the fan with tantrums about taking them away and limiting the gameplay even more. If we go the other route and remove recalling in dungeons, then the poo hits the fan with the other group. Seriously, that's a prime example of that narrow-mindedness I was mentioning earlier in the thread. There's a bigger picture to look at, folks. Other games don't control-freak every mob in every zone by restricting access. Part of the fun of WoW for me was always to venture into a zone higher than my level and see how well I could hold my own with clever gameplay. But newbies weren't given end-game gear and told to go kill in a zone 20 levels over their range. Things need to be earned to be appreciated, and right now they aren't really being earned, which has a ripple effect on the affected players as well as the entire shard.

Yes, balrons *are* meant for an older player. That doesn't mean that a younger player can't kill them with the right methods. Part of UO's excellence is that a clever player has many, many options open to them; taking that away would be stupid. The problem arises when older players are teaching nearly every new player to do those, skipping all the steps leading up to them and ignoring all other options for moneymaking that are account-level appropriate. It wasn't a big deal a year ago when a handful of younger players would figure out how to run balrons and do so. It became a major issue when the majority of new players were taught how to do this right away. I suppose I could simply buff balrons up and make it so they ignore pets and attack players first, (and now that I've thought of it, I will talk this over with +V. We'll probably implement something like this for awhile as a social experiment) but again - it's not hard for older players to refrain from throwing newbies into balron rotations/etc too early and narrowing the newbie's scope of the game down to one option, thus breeding resentment between vets and newbies right off the bat based on where the newbies were told was good for them to hunt (IE: highly competitive spawn areas that have always been camped by older players, rather than newer). Limiting the game isn't the right answer, a change in behavior is.

Why would we forcibly linearize the game progression and narrow the scope of options on the shard by completely removing younger players' access to balrons and other 'upper level' mobs in the 'regular lands' even more than they are already? That is not in the best interest of the shard as a whole, and it is not true to the spirit of UO at all. Mine and +V's ultimate goals are to *widen* the scope and provide lots of different options to all players at all levels. Right now it's *too* linear and *too* thin on options, and we don't want to add to that problem. That doesn't mean that it's somehow good for the shard that newbies are told to run balrons at day 2 and given what's needed to do so.

And I'm on a roll for having awesome ideas while writing this post - it just dawned on me that I have 4-5 younger player dungeons almost completely ready to open. I had been waiting to open them until my new-player town was finished and coli had switched it so newbies start the game there, but there's no real reason I can't just open these new dungeons now and then move their entrance gates into the newbie town later. I'll work on that some in the next week or two, and once those open that should help some with providing more options for the younger players - options the vets don't even have access to.

[Joshuashw]

Other ideas would be to offer enchanting or some form of salvaging for crap loot items. being able to break rings swords and crap armor into different materials would be nice. add a little more to do while hunting and maybe add more value to non balrons and give something to do with crap loot. there are all kinds of things that can be done.

I would personally like to be able to salvage items i loot, that would be aweeeesome.

more crafting from salvaging ! more specializations in crafting and more !

[Davenmyr]

Greetings.

Figured I would contribute to the conversation here a bit, because I find it interesting and like to see how things like this are handled. This doesnt address the economic issue so much as the player power issue as I see it. Although some of it may fit into the economic issue as well.

Wife and I started on this shard a few months ago (53 days by the scroll on the paperdoll). We have had a great time so far. 99% of the interactions with the other players have been quite positive, and I would like to thank the olther players, and the staff for such an amazing virtual world.

One of the things I think that happens is people look to UO to provide the same leveling/gearing curve that other games have taught us to expect.

IE start game, get skills, kill rats, get looted armor, store bought or make whatever you can. As you grow you get to loot better armor, or make better armor, you move on to harder things, etc. UO and this shard in particular kind of breaks that mold in several ways. Skill gain, money gain and power gain comes FAST as an early age. It takes very little time to GM skills and make money. Since there is no skill cap, each player can easily gather resources to craft while they are making money, and even if those resources are not as valuable as they may be on other shards, it makes obtaining the highest level of player crafted armor (note, I am not speaking of perfectly rolled runic armors, but as a new player, most any stat will do, so ANY runic armor is usually an upgrade) easy. The problem for us (my wife and I-again this is just a perspective I figured it couldnt hurt to mention) is once you have runic crafted armor, the next steps gear progression wise seem to be doom/paragon artifacts. The problem is there is a fairly significant gear gap between what a player with no relayers and player crafted armor can do, and one with the next obtainable "level" of gear, so now the mobs one shot us. We seem to be stuck between "this stuff is too easy, and this stuff is too hard". So, after a month and a half of TRYING not to cave to the buy nobles/mules mentality. We bought nobles. Now things that teleported on our heads and one shot us die to the pretty little horsies, things are almost too easy, so naturally we look to up the ante, and now we are farming in places we shouldnt be for our ages, hoping to find upgrades so we can keep moving forward. It creates a nasty cycle only enhanced by the fact we could have had nobles inside a week if we had wanted.

Ok that may have been a long way of saying it seems to me (again just what we have experienced) that there is a hole in the progression path someplace after player crafted armor, but before the 220 dex god mode. That hole gets filled with pets more often than not, creating a range of content no longer viable cause it offers no upgrades and not enough challenge. Balrons here we come!

Some possible solutions have been mentioned, but in the end, this influx of new players are going to have issues when they cant get any upgrades without buying stuff (I know it seems hard to believe, but not everyone wants to be handed everything, or buy their upgrades). One of the things that drew us back to UO was the fact that crafted stuff was GOOD. Now, not so much. So, some ideas have been brought up, and I think they may help smooth the path of progression out some. Josh keeps bringing up crafting. I agree with him.

I think a decent chunk of the players like the UO crafting system, can it be buffed up a little perhaps? If crafted items had a little more weapon points for instance, I would have started leveling crafted stuff a month ago, but as it is, there is no point. 100000 tokens for 200 less points is a big deal, why waste valuable time and effort leveling something that you cant even really get much for (cant even get 2 50% hit categories-ie HLL and HFB for instanc- on a crafted weapon point wise-thats before you add any stats). The clear winner becomes looted and artifacts. Well, if you have to buy the stuff cause you arent big enough to farm it, may as well save another 2 days and buy the best right? Bone crusher here we come! I dont think they should be the same power as the end game stuff, but a decent filler may see people leveling crafted items as mid term goals. I would if the point spread was less severe.

Is there a way to make the armor level-able as well? Not relayer level, but add a few "enhancements"? Now the new players can farm the gems, and resources to progress the gear without moving into the vets areas while we power up. Once the armor is buffed up a little, and we have leveled our weapons, THEN we should be ready to move to the GoC stuff, Balrons, etc. As it is right now, things hit a player in crafted armor so hard, add to that our stats are low so no instant bandaids, plus low hp/mana = most see no choice but to buy power, or turn to pets. Right back where we started from. It might be good in the short term, but it moves the value of progress so far forward, 3 months in they quit because they are bored. It is their own fault, nobody MADE them buy nobles, but they felt like they had no choice. We must be saved from ourselves sometimes.

I will stop rambling now, it is too long already. Im not sure it was much of an essay, and I am not even sure it is readable. Just some thoughts.

TLDR-is it possible to make crafted stuff fill the void between gm runic armor and end game relayers through an additional leveling system? Perhaps something in the donation/ ED shop even?

Thanks for the wonderful experience so far btw.

[Elijah Ray]

Levalable Armor would be a really cool addition! I really like the idea and the thought process behind it!

[Asmodean]

Levelable armor is a re-layer, and already exists in game, even if its in a different form than you meant.

I am guessing you mean, apply a level deed to a leather tunic, and level it up.

The way it exists currently is level a weapon, then make it into a tunic.
End result is the same, and limits you rather easily and without additional code to leveling one thing at a time, rather than a full suit at once.

Back to the topic at hand however, which is the economy. I believe one way to improve the economy is more item sinks, rather than gold sinks. Give those jackals collars more than one use, that is beneficial, and you will start to see the supply dwindle, as people are using them up, rather than hoarding them, which in turn will make them rarer and more valuable. Rather than being given away freely, and without consideration for the long term effects.

For lack of a better example, im going to use a direct gold comparison, then some imaginary item.

case 1: gold - turn in jackals for 2 mil gold. Little to no incentive to sell for less, or give away. (don't think this would be a good solution, just example).

case 2: item - turn in jackals collar for ... a peanut. This peanut could be used for maybe some quest item in touria, or elysium, or maybe something the vets are actually looking for and would use. Something along the lines of 10 sets of travesty keys? 15 dread horn summon kits? 1/50th of a titans hammer? I dunno, but something that would remove said item from the game, yet remain useful to someone who can farm them easily, or buy multiples. Once supply drops, demand will rise, and a new equilibrium will settle in.

[Davenmyr]

I know relayers already exist, I guess I failed to mention in the level-able armor area I was thinking something more limited. A boost to basic stats (str, hp etc) and MAYBE a bonus stat to help bridge the gap between nothing, and a leveled relayer.

I think it will also help the economy. Make this item non relayerable so more materials are used in crafting. Make it cost tokens/gold and/or resources so money is spent. Why not use your idea of using some of the current non relayer-able artifacts.

"bring me your leather tunic, 1000 hides, 20000 gold, a relic of value (ie some inexpensive artifact that otherwise gets trashed) and 20 fire rubys (or whatever) and I will imbue your tunic with additonal properties/"levels" and then the potential to add a few more stats, but not on the same level as relayers. Then the player chooses 8 dex or something along those lines. It has to be limited, but it has to be a decent enough deal to make it worth it. Then, I do all my current armor, buy a crafted weapon with some good rolls, and head to a dungeon that has things to farm and experience to gain. I now have a few more hit points, a reason to farm content I can kill fairly easy while I level my weapon. The next step is relayers, and in the meantime I have a little more power, some more survivability, and have spent some money/resources and time NOT farming balrons at 3 days old. Moreover, we MAY see some variety in playstyle other than the same progression path since people can augment how they choose to add stats.

While I am leveling I am saving for relayers, farming tokens, and repairing/using resources.

Having said all that, I am sure it would be a task to code, and I am confident the staff has WAY better things to do lol. I was just throwing ideas out in an attempt to contribute! I know that doesnt mean they are good ideas . I also understand I may be SERIOUSLY overestimating the average players desire to "play" the game and not just rush to the end.

Have a good weekend all, TGIF

[Rocafort]

Davenmyr, thanks for summarizing the feelings of the new players.

As a new player, you find yourself with a bunch of patched armor and a weapon that you found in the donation room. Ok, you GM'ed a lot of skills, but that wont make any difference out there. You check the forums/wiki and it is either newbie dungeon, rat quest or....220dex/pets/relayers. What is in between? which is the progress path? What should I be targeting? What should I be wearing to face it?

Even 'official' information in the wiki jumps from newbie dungeon to GoC/220dex/Relayer model. There dont seem to be intermediate goals that pave the way of progress. It is like starting a new account in WoW and after the newbie area, you are targeted to the gear in the latest raid dungeon. Hopefully the new stuff that +Nyx is preparing might solve this! At least content wise, I dont know if gear wise. I am new to the server, maybe close to two months...and I have a huge ignorance regarding existing gear. I am aware of the end-game options, but no idea on what is in the middle.

I also have felt the pain of trying not using pets. You are wasted by almost every mob that drops more than 100gp. I also was very surprised by the almost non-utility of magery. Oh magery was so great to play with in other shards...but has almost no use here, low damage, summoned mobs dont stand a chance,...I guess that same goes for necromancy (which I have not leveled seeing that no one uses it like magery).

It might seems that all this issue is off-topic, but clearly affects the economy, because all the server craves the same few items/strategies while ignores the other 95%. I still think that economy is fine, must be left alone (capitalism works like this) and question who is asking for changes...each day I have a clearer idea on who wants the changes and why.

We agree that crafting needs a boost. I am finding myself that I have a crafted weapon that I am using (because I dont have anything better), I put a leveling deed on it but after some days Id rather not leveling it...why? Because crafted weapons are nerfed and only give 3pts per level as compared to looted ones. I dont know if changing this would push the crafted weapon market. Maybe make both crafted and looted the same pts/level, but make crafted harder to level if you consider that looted weapons need that 'love'.

The awesomeness of UO relied on the openness, you could be anything you wanted!. Some people states the same for Excelsior, you can be anything...the question is, can you succeed?

I wont go into the relayer issue, the economic engine of the shard.

[Yoda]

I have been mostly just reading this topic..

this is slightly related and would likely have economic ripple effect.. I am sure there are more things like this but 2 things leap to my head as things that cause sorta a monolithic playstyle lack of character classes (everyone being the same axe weilding warrior mage)

1. Spell damage overall as a base is far too low.. Even with full fc/fcr you simply can't "swing" as fast as a weapon as in spells fire less often, as well you are subject to fizzling etc. in order to make it even slightly viable you are wearing pretty much a full relayer suit with sdi on every piece and even then the damage is very underwhelming, as well when you have the gear to do this spell damage you are likely better off swinging an axe. [solution]a widespread tweak of the base spell damage to make it a viable playstyle (pure mage) might be in order

economic impact: crafted spellbooks with bonus' could become more sought after, and it would help prop up the value of a goc piece/gem due to their effect being good for magery
social impact: perhaps having a great wizard in your party wouldn't be just a situation of being a body guard to them

2. Poisoning/Infecting strike. now while to most this may sound minor, I think its really a problem to have the damage from infecting strike be so low, not only is it low but the period of the DOT (damage over time) is also very slow, meaning this skillset gets relegated to the 'rarely used' section.. in the rich tradition of uo poisoning has a storied history, granted there were eras where it is far too powerful but when a character such as myself uses a deadly poisoned weapon (120 poisoning skill) it ups the level of the poison to "lethal" levels.. although when you really look at it its more like "laughable" levels.. Now while excelsior is pve and as such thieves/rogues etc take a back seat anyway it definitely limits the fight styles of characters to take a whole class of weapon and make it useless, especially since in the history of uo, people always remember being poisoned.

[solution] tweak the poisoning/infecting strike damage to be greater and faster, not so that it becomes a universal killer and switches everyone from axes to infecting weaps, but so that it becomes a choice perhaps worth doing.

economic impact: a market for deadly poison kegs where none exists (its true check vendors)
social impact: the ability for pure thief/rogue class players and mixed sorts (nox mage etc etc etc)

thats 2 areas where the shard mechanics themselves lead players to a closedminded game style and I am sure there are others that will pop to mind with thought

Yoda

[Pariah]

Wow. tons of good stuff here. I absolutely LOVE the idea of turning in those useless artifacts we all trash for a shot at something more valuable. It's kind of like treasures of Tokuno, but perhaps with a shot at a boss, a random chance at another arti, etc. etc. The possibilities there are many and could be scalable based on value. It would also ensure some leveling out in value for artifacts.