Fair Trade's Sunday Giveaways

[Johnny Blade]

For the past 8 weeks the players that run Britain's Fair Trade Outlet (Michiko, Johnny Blade, Culichi & Zeratul) have sponsored a New(er) player giveaway which began with ten multi color backpacks that are displayed out so one by one players may choose a color with the guarantee of a mixture of useful items, useless items, a check for 50k (or more if you're lucky) and if you are extra lucky a generous grand prize. Well now that we are entering the 8th week I am proud to say that what started as a fun promotion for our new shop has become a staple of Sunday evenings. The above mentioned players carried the full weight of providing cash and items to make the bags worth while and helpful during the first few weeks. But now that has changed... and something has begun to occur that was never intended but has exemplified the quality of Excelsior's players and I am proud to announce to the rest of the shard that it is occurring.

The original invitation was extended to players 30 days and younger and now has evolved to a system of trust meaning you can receive a bag every week until you no longer need the assistance. For the past few weeks some of the players that stood in line for that first giveaway are now messaging me Sunday afternoon asking if I am planning on doing it again that evening. But now it is not to stand in that line and collect anymore but rather to donate items to fill the bags for the next generation of players. Not only has it lightened the amount that we have to put up to run this event but it has displayed the quality of this shard and its players. These players were never asked to donate and were never told that they could no longer receive a gift but they communicated to us how much the giveaway assisted them when they first began playing and they feel like it is their responsibility to pay it forward. Thank you to all of the staff and the Excelsior veteran players for envisioning a world that truly brings out the best in people and that keeps the importance of integrity and fellowship instantly recognizable within seconds of logging in for the first time.

That being said, I would like to extend an invitation to all new players and also to any player that feels that they could benefit from the assistance. We expect nothing in return and we trust that when you have reached the point of sustainability you will allow the next player to step in your place. But until that time please be on the lookout for World Chat announcements beginning at around 5:00PM Eastern Standard Time or 10:00PM Shard Time. In weeks past we have begun the event around 8-9:00PM EST but we have decided to try our best to begin earlier so we optimize how many players can take advantage of these great gifts. If you haven't attended one yet and don't think it is worth your time you are certainly entitled to your opinion but make it an informed opinion...here are a few examples of both common items (~) and various grand prizes (*) from weeks past:

~50,000gp Check
~100% LRC set
~Nobles & Mules & Ridable Polar Bears... Oh my!
~110 & 115 Power Scrolls
~Crafting tools (high charges) and resources
~Skill starter kits complete with a Power Scroll and all the items you will need to start training
~Pet Bonding Deeds
~Stat Essences
~100 charge Pet Leash
~Gem Pouch
~Blessed Bag
~Stat/LRC/Resist Jewelry
~Treasure Maps
~Maxxed Pets
~Looted Weapons w/ a leveling deed
*Universal Dye Tubs
*Doom Rares: Hunter's Headdresses, Jackal's Collar, Spirit of the Totem, Axe of the Heavens, Breathe of the Dead, Armor of Fortune, and many more
*Bag of Sending fully charged
*Skill Ball +20
*Small Bag of Keeping
*Self Repair Deed
*+5 Individual Stat Deed
*+10 Max Stat Deed
*Fully leveled weapon w/ NPS

We plan on continuing to solidify this as one of the many great traditions on Excelsior so please remember to stop by or if you happen to be on earlier in the day PM one of us and check what time we are planning to start. It is always my intention that no player that stands in line will ever leave empty handed. The only thing that can stop this event from growing is a lack of attendance. I hope to have a great group of all different ages on Sunday so spread the word. Please vets, I know most of you have new players that you have taken under your wing so please send them our way they will not regret it.

There is a reason why a 17 year old computer game still supports an active community and somehow still has new players join daily. It is a phenomenon if you think about it but it is not difficult to see that the cause is found within the most honored and revered tradition of Excelsior: the pride we take in paying it forward and instead of taking advantage of our young players for a cheap thrill, we teach, protect, donate, mentor and lead by example and then a few months later they do the same because that is what they are used to and what the aspire to be.

I hope to see a line wrapped around Britain's Fair Trade Outlet this Sunday evening, for those of you who have not been before its a quick stroll SE of the Brit Bank or you can find it under "Shops" on the World Teleporter. All are invited including vets to enjoy the atmosphere and get to know the newer players. Older players if you feel compelled to contribute there is no gift too small we will find a way to package anything and if you really want to donate but don't have anything particular in mind you can give a check for whatever amount you feel comfortable and it will go directly into the backpacks. PM Johnny Blade or Culichi to set it up or any questions regarding the event.

Behind the Scenes... Last minute bagging while the line gets unruly

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One of the first giveaways

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Later down the road when we started getting the hang of it

[korndogg]

With all due respect. This isn't good for the economy. Everything you give away is what I have on my vendor. I may as well remove most of my items that im paying daily to host. Somebody gave me some decent armor when I started. Not gonna lie. But to offer things of this value for free, weekly, I feel is a bit much. it's already hard to sell stuff that I can't use but is of value. Im in your guild so I'm not trying to create friction. But I think a weekly hunting event is a better approach. Show newer people GOC areas. peerless mobs. 10 young players can gain friends / hunting companions and easily take down Gnaw for a chance at something good. Sorry to conflict. Just my 2 cents.

[Dain Firehelm]

I agree with Mr. Marsh. Your intention is great, and i congratulate you guys for taking such effort in helping new players, but these are far too valuable items, given away in a short amount of time. I know u're trying to incentive new players to stay,but at the same time you could be discouraging older players to play, as they won't sell this stuff. Plus young players wont learn the 2 main skills in ultima online: patience & hard work. I agree with mr. marsh in that helping them to fish would be better than giving the fish away

Hope this doesnt come across as an argument or something we're all trying to make the best out of our beloved shard.

thanks for reading, and cheers!

[Johnny Blade]

I really appreciate your posts guys and in theory you both are correct in the logic but as a practical matter 50k in gold per week is nothing more than money for them to spend in the economy. I respectfully disagree with any notion that the giveaway has a negative effect on the economy. The bags are random as are the items that go in them and besides the arties and the grand prize stuff which goes to one person per week there is nothing on there that will deplete the economy. In order for the economy to feel the effect there would have to be a significant reliance on the giveaway to provide for the demand of that item and the player would have to have assurance that they can get that item they need every week. I.e. a player would have to completely abstain from buying a pet leash, or hammer, or whatever the item is that you are selling all week and wait until Sunday when they can get it for free every week. The thing is they won't get the same thing every week the only thing that is consistent is the cash and, like I said, 50k per week is not enough to tip the scale in any direction on this shard. The mules and nobles that are donated are usually the ones that people cannot sell due to the breeding so they donate to give a new player a something to start out with. Not to mention, I think there may have been a handful of players that have come to the giveaway 4/8 weeks, most of the players that come are exactly the ones we designed this for they are brand new players that 50k actually makes a difference to. The truth is me giving away a bag like this to a new player, weekly, is helping the economy because a player that stays because he happened to pick the bag with T-Maps and decides "let me try this out" or the player that gets a mule but can't use it decides that he is going to spend the next week working his pet skills keeps another player in the economy instead of the player possibly losing interest and the economy losing them before they have any impact.

To quickly address the valuable items there is one or two given out a week and the thrill of a young player getting a valuable item like that is a good thing and there is nothing that will convince me that is bad for the economy. If I was giving out 5 Jackal's Collars every week then your argument would definitely apply. It's very simple math I am not flooding the market with any one item nor am I taking any customers away from you. I probably gave you more of a chance for new customers, for example: Player picks backpack and his bag includes 5 dex stat essences he uses them and realizes how awesome that was compared to working dex, does that player wait until the next Sunday to pick another bag that has very little chance of having the same thing again? No. He takes the 50k and maybe walks to your vendor and buys the essences from you. I could do this all day but you get the point. I'm not willing to stop something that I know is appreciated by the people that have attended for the past 2 months. The event is a nice weekly event that new players interact with older players that donated and decide to stick around and watch and answer questions. We answer a ton of questions and usually end up showing a player one place or another afterwards. I promise you that no old player is going to have their bank account affected by this giveaway and certainly not to the point where they are going to leave the game its just not significant enough volume to cause the effects that you claim it will cause.

When weighing the pros and cons to decide whether to shut it down or change what we are doing it is a no-brainer because I believe that the giveaways may actually play a significant part in new player retention, it may be just the boost they need to keep exploring and discovering the shard when they are in their most vulnerable state. Whereas the con is that in theory it could possibly affect the economy negatively leading to the loss of older players, which is and has always been theoretical. Its not the items nor the method of obtaining the items that drives the economy its players, the more you have the bigger the economy. As for patience and hard work, there is always something to work for in this game and people will find a way to get what they want if they want it bad enough giving new players some startup help to let them get on their feet does not take away from that. You both raise very good real world economic theories but they just do not hold the same weight in this economy if I put all the items out on a table and people could choose what they get every week maybe I would agree with you and also if was the same 15 people every week coming back that might change my mind as well but that's just not the case. I proved our events work in my original post by showing you that players that were at the events two months ago standing in line getting a bag are now helping to fill the bags for the next group because they are giving back and how is it they can give back? Because they are now productive members of the economy.

[Yoda]

allow me to join in the fray, I appreciate the sentiment of what you guys are trying to do.

here is the thing. I as well am going with what people are saying..

the items are vastly too powerful. and here is something I have figured out over time and experience running JDI for several years.

giving stuff away to new players doesn't keep them long term. In fact its usually a quick way to create a dormant account that will eventually have to be purged by staff.

This isn't meant in any way as snobbery, or me trying to make more gold but beyond the economic impact it actually creates a lesser player with less invested in their character.

Lets compare this scenario to teaching a young boy or girl to ride a bike.. which one is up and running faster

a) Child #1 is given instruction by the parent verbally and all of the safety equipment training wheels helmets kneepads elbow pads you name it. And then the parent says "ok go ride the bike" and leaves them to it. Then after a week or so the parent removes the training wheels from the bike and once again backs off.

b)Child #2 is given no safety equipment whatsoever (1980's style) and a bike with lousy brakes, and a chain that slips off from time to time. The parent walks alongside the bike and acts as the training wheels, letting go of the bike when they see the child is actually maintaining the balance themselves.

yup knowledge and attentiveness beats "stuff" every time..

Taking a newer player to where they can hunt in their current gear beats a giveaway every time as well. If they get a jackal's its because they saved up and purchased it. When they do that they have invested the grind to aquire the item, and it means something to them at a core. The player that got the item in a giveaway is more likely to either a)sell the item for fast cash, or b) not appreciate what it took to get, and from there a) look for more handouts, or b) lose interest entirely because life was made far too easy for them to appreciate it.

That is before you take into account the fact that other players on the shard are attempting to sell most if not all of these items that you have, and some of them (the ed items) are simply something that should be earned/donated for (+5 stat scrolls, +20skillball etc) you are depriving the player of the "false sense of accomplishment" that an mmo uses to hook a player for months/years. On top of that you are making it more difficult for existing established players to sell their wares..

so pay it forward for 8 new players a week, so that they can get bored quicker, and not invest effort in their gameplay (and therefore have emotional attachment to their things/progress) and mess over 2-3x that in existing players that are already regular players on the shard, forcing them to hunt/grind more to make up the difference in their lowered sales.

I would say your guild member has the right idea, hunting events, champ runs, teaching about the goc etc.

Even with instruction you can go overboard as well. there is a difference between taking someone to a goc dungeon and having them do the killing/collecting and having them in a party with you and "walking them thru the goc" on a string.

now this may sound strange coming from the guildmaster of JDI because some of my guys are very geared out, but stop them talk to them and ask them, how much of that was handed to them by me, and how much was earned and the answer will likely shock you, its 90-95% earned. Many of them in fact have bought their artifacts from me and the discount really wasn't major if anything at all. Players earning what they have makes a long term player. Giveaways make a dormant account

[+Nyx]

While I think it's a great thing that we have a community who cares enough to debate what's best to do for the newbs with the intent of keeping them here long-term, I tend to agree with Randy, Khamul, and Yoda. Many of the items listed are just too much for a player to be handed if the goal is for that new player to become a many-year veteran here someday. Giving them ED-purchaseable items is silly- encourage them to vote to earn those EDs, or to donate if they are able. Further, you don't seem to be limiting who can attend each week, so a single new player could feasibly receive excellent prizes every week for a month.

It is always better to teach a man to fish, as someone said earlier, than to hand him a fish. I do understand the thrill behind hosting a giveaway, though, so let me suggest instead that you hold a giveaway once per month with much more modest rewards (tools, 50k gold/tokens, lower level treasure maps, low-end doom rares, 2-3 LRC pieces, pet bonding deeds, pet leash, etc). You should aim for items the players will need to replace or replenish on their own pretty quickly, so that while it helps them for the time being, it does not prevent them from needing to work hard for things of higher value or prevent them from participating in the economy by purchasing upgrades & other necessary items from their fellow players. Then, the other 3 weeks of the month, instead of a giveaway - host an outing, like the others have suggested. Take them somewhere, explain how it works and what to do, and then stand back and let them do it. Be there to res and help with corpse retrievals, answer questions, provide a few extra bandages/regs/etc when needed. Each of you older players who are in charge of this organization (I think there were 4 you listed) could take a small group of newbies to different things. If each of you has one type of outing that you do each week, new players could cycle through over the course of their month to get to try each outing. I'd even suggest you keep track of attendance and only newbies who have participated in at least 2 outings can participate in the giveaway. That way, you have the best of both worlds. You can still do a modest giveaway without showering the new players with things they haven't earned; and you also enable the new players to earn the things they need and thus give them more game satisfaction which will lead to them being a lot more likely to stay here longer.

Having been actively participating on this shard longer than any of you guys running these giveaways have played here (geez, I'm old...what am I doing with my life..get off my lawn...grumpgrumpgrump ), I've seen this happen over and over throughout the years. Sadly it's become more than just an occasional thing for newbies to be showered with items far above what they've earned, then get bored within a few months and quit. I've said it before, and I suppose I'll be saying it many times more in the future but - giving very nice things to new players does not really help them or the shard. It's a nice thing to do and you'll be popular with them for it; but the majority of the players benefiting from receiving too many above-their-level items within their first month will not be here in one year. When I joined the shard years and years ago, new players were helped via information, resses when needed, etc. Occasionally someone would give you some free tools or a hanzo's bow to work with. And a lot of the players who started back then (or even earlier) are still here today. However, most of the new players who started here a year ago and received lots and lots of items from their guilds/friends/vet players aren't here anymore and haven't been for a long time. In many cases their accounts have already decayed.

I know it seems silly to many of you, this whole idea that making newbies work for things helps keep them here longer, but there is an entire psychology to it. Some psychologists specialize in helping video game designers create games that the consumer will stick with for years. It's not uncommon at all for psychs to be involved in game development, because it's an absolute fact that people will only continue to participate in the same activities year in and year out when they receive certain positive feelings from it. In terms of video games, those feelings come from earning things, from the sense of accomplishment and personal satisfaction.

Anyway, I do think it's great that y'all are actively trying to help and that UOEX is the kind of community that has inspired y'all to even want to do so. I hope you will take this input in the spirit in which it was meant, and that you will collectively consider making modifications to your current system.

[Asmodean]

Yoda is wise in his ways.

I'd also like to point out something you pointed out and may not have even realized.

You started with 10 backpacks. Now those people want to help.

Awesome! Except that soon there will be 20 backpacks, and 40 backpacks, and 80 backpacks given away two times a day instead of your 10 per week.

While your 500k (10 backpacks * 50k) may not seem like a lot, it really does add up. While it may be 'useful' to those that need it, it doesn't teach them anything except to expect things to be given to them. As Yoda said, they don't learn that getting a jackals collar is relatively time consuming unless you're really lucky. Yes, I've gotten 2 in 10 minutes before, but I've also not seen any for days or weeks. These little things, are what give things value.

Person A walks into gauntlet and gets a jackals/sot/hunters/Bonecrusher on their first round and walks out. These items appear easy to get, and hold little value.

Person B walks into gauntlet and doesn't get the set for 150 times around. The items now have real value (at least to that person) if for no other reason than time invested.

Giveaways create more player As than player Bs.

In your list - giving away nobles and mules (even bad ones) hurts the people trying to sell them. It devalues them because I could pay 150k for one, or i could wait until one dies a couple times and someone gives it away.

110 and 115 powerscrolls. People sell those also, and you removing the opportunity for a sale each and every time you give one away.

Depending on where those crafting tools are coming from, you may be hurting the ingot sellers.

Pet bonding deeds. You're hurting the people selling tokens (unless you're buying from them, but as a vet most likely not).

anything worth EDs, you're taking possible donations/votes away from the server just because someone has extra.

Maxxed pets - again, you're taking away the opportunity for sales of pet breeders.

fully leveled weapons - There is either no sense of accomplishment of achieving this somewhat monumental task, or even possibly removing the sale of a weapon leveller.

While providing opportunities for some, you are removing opportunities for others.

[Johnny Blade]

As much as it may look like I'm trying to argue with you all I want you to know it's the contrary I'm taking what you all say very seriously. Just so you know many of you posting here have been players I've respected since I first started and have in one way or another inspired me through your posts and dedication to this shard so thank you for that. I am tending to agree with the large items although I still hold that it is so rare that I don't think its that big of a problem I am going to go a few weeks without them and throw one in maybe monthly. I think +Nix and some of you others are putting forth great ideas for alternatives to just giving away and if you join us one night which I invite you all to you will see it is more then just give and go people stick around meet the older players ask questions and get very good advice. I receive PMs all the time through the week not asking for more free stuff but rather asking if I have something on my vendor or can point them to a vendor who has what they need. As for taking away from business of others... I don't mean to sound rude please don't take anything I say that way I know we all have the same intentions at heart but we find a lot of this from our vendors profits and we tell the new players to shop with our vendors if we were not turning the profit then we would not be able to do this on a weekly basis the truth is we tailored our shop towards newer players needs from the beginning and we chose to promote through a giveaway system supported by our vendors. Have I gone overboard with some of my gifts... Absolutely and I'm going to calm down with that as mentioned above but the shard isn't losing money from donations because the gifts weren't free they were paid for by players who have earned it. +Nix I want you to know I do keep very meticulous notes on who attends each week and who gets a grand prize and I can honestly tell you two people have received more than one and no one has attended more than 4 events. We are on the honor system and you can feel the people that attend are truly brand new for the most part. I am planning some trips just like you all suggested and I always welcome the ideas from people like you. It's one of the reasons I'm still here. I was assisted when I started and was given suits of armor and crafting items until I got on my feet but what kept me around is the bond I shared with the older players that helped me. That is the point and that is why I will continue to do these weekly because there is a small window when young players need this help and I want them to know that there is somewhere they can get help and one on one advice that is there every week. I hope you haven't taken anything I've said as rude and I will always listen to advice from anyone offering I just ask that you all read what I am saying as well and try to see my side and if you have time PM me and join me tomorrow I will be happy to show you the benefit. It's really fun. Thanks everyone for your input.

[Fiernocht]

We wont let them take our Jerbs!


nah, on a more serious note, +Nyx et al is right... and in my opinion all these give aways, unless they are rare, such as cygnus' yearly one, they all just harm the economy, even giving something like a high use tool hurts things.. the best gift is information and time...but thats just my 10 cents, cause my 2 cents is free, Im a nuisance who sent you sent for me?

[culichi]

im not gonna argue the child rearing or game design stuff because I know nothing about either. the argument about shard economics though ive seen on chat and forums a lot and it makes no sense to me how im hurting other sellers by giving away an item that I didn't pull out of a gm magic bag but worked my but off farming or breeding myself. should I trash barrel my mules in order to avoid hurting other sellers? because if I decide to sell instead of give away the mules ill still be cutting into other sellers sales. I feel that anything that ive worked for myself and didn't cheat to acquire I have a right to dispose of in any way I like.
a lot of good arguments against the weekly give aways and I do think we should tinker with them a bit but the economics argument is tired and I don't think it applies to player run events at all since all of the items are being paid for in work or gold by someone even if its not the person receiving them.

[lilbear68]

johnny blade
I am sympathetic to your give away and think its a great gesture keep up the good work. on the other hand I notice that the only people complaining about your actions are the vendors that stand to lose a tiny bit of sales. this tells that your stepping on the toes of greedy ppl that want to wring every last gold piece out of an item. IMHO their arguments are specious and if they are unhappy with your impact on their sales then maybe they should try another field to attempt to enrich themselves and at some other groups expense.
either way kudos to you and your group and keep up the good deeds

[+Nyx]

johnny blade
I am sympathetic to your give away and think its a great gesture keep up the good work. on the other hand I notice that the only people complaining about your actions are the vendors that stand to lose a tiny bit of sales. this tells that your stepping on the toes of greedy ppl that want to wring every last gold piece out of an item. IMHO their arguments are specious and if they are unhappy with your impact on their sales then maybe they should try another field to attempt to enrich themselves and at some other groups expense.
either way kudos to you and your group and keep up the good deeds

This was rather a bit more aggressive and rude than this discussion called for. Please keep your input constructive and polite to others.

[Mystic]

I agree that it is better to "teach a man to fish", however I think there is more to a community than just economy. If giveaways like this bring people together and raise them from the position of taking to a place of giving, then surely this is a good thing.

[lilbear68]

maybe more truth is needed and less PC

[+Nyx]

maybe more truth is needed and less PC

There's a difference between stating your idea of the truth and being rude under the guise of honesty.

I would recommend you look into that difference