Is AFK BOD gathering against the rules?

[Vedestril]

I have looked through the forums as well as on the Wiki and find nothing on this so I wanted to ask this question before starting to save myself trouble later in the future.

Is gathering BODs AFK through a script/macro against the rules?

I can see this from both sides as this could be considered a resource and would be against the rules due to this.
I see the other side of this argument being that you still have to actually gather resources to fill the BODs so having them is just giving you a task to complete and would be allowed.

Any insight on this would be great!

[Xavian]

I would say that the BOD is the valuable resource in this situation, not what you are filling it with. So in my eyes, it would be against the rules. But obviously, it's up to the staff.

[lnickos]

AFK BOD gathering is technically illegal because it provides value while not at the keyboard. However, it was posted by one of the GMs on forums (I forget who) that it is impossible for them to tell whether or not someone is AFK while trying to get BODs because their policy is to be absolutely sure that you are doing wrong before punishment - they want to catch you in the act. This means they would have to AFK check you only during the window at which you are gathering BODs, which is very narrow (it probably only takes you 20 seconds to gather BODs). If you are not macroing and standing still for 2 hours or if you are macroing and your macro is pausing you for 2 hours, nobody can tell the difference and nobody will check if you are AFK unless you are in a "No AFK Zone". So, in the eyes of the GMs, if you are gathering BODs, they are giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you were gone for a long time, came back, got your BOD, and left again.

My advice: it is up to your own honor system to follow the spirit of the rules or not. The spirit of the rule is this: if you gain something, be at the keyboard. Some people do not care about rules and only follow them for fear of punishment. In this case, you would macro BOD gathering (not judging if so). Others believe in the rules of fairness and will follow them just because they are right. In this case, you would not macro BOD gathering.

[Vedestril]

This is why I am asking. Like I said in my original post I do see both sides of the story.

However, it was posted by one of the GMs on forums (I forget who) that it is impossible for them to tell whether or not someone is AFK while trying to get BODs because their policy is to be absolutely sure that you are doing wrong before punishment - they want to catch you in the act.

This quote brings up a good point as some people play by the rules and some people do not. If it is impossible to catch someone then it should be stated that it is okay to BOD gather through macro/script. If it possible to be caught and is indeed against the rules then it should be stated as such. I didn't think anything of Alchemy but it is stated that you can no AFK macro alchemy for gains because it can be a resource.

I feel it is very important to have it stated that it is or is not okay because it evens the playing field for everyone. If some think GMs can not find your AFK macroing BODs and they do it and get in trouble then I feel they were not properly warned. I also feel if people are doing it because of something that was previously stated then it should be stated it is okay for everyone not just those who heard a GM say it in the past.

I feel this forum should be a spot for GM to step in and make a final decision on this issue and perhaps even add it to the Wiki so that future people who this same question have an answer right away.

[lnickos]

I think that I may have provided too many details and that could have taken away from my main point. In the rules, it is clearly not okay:

The use of macros or scripts is allowed, as long as you actively monitor the game. Unless otherwise specified, this applies to all parts and aspects of activities on this shard.

AFK-macro'ing BOD gathering is not listed as approved so therefore by default it is not allowed. This policy AFK policy has been in effect since 2016:

Our Anti-AFK macroing rules were changed from a blacklist-based to a whitelist-based.

Also, if something is wrong, it would not be right to simply allow everyone to do it. If anything, a new rule would be imposed to make it possible to check if someone was playing with an unfair advantage:

It would make sense if we adjusted this rule, so that announcements can only be done while at the keyboard. But then, if someone posts it, and we check then 60 seconds later... the rule would then have to be "you have to be at the keyboard for 60 seconds after posting an ad" ... overall hard to enforce.

This idea was proposed for another afk-macro issue but it could be used in general for all non-approved afk-macro actions that take less than 1 minute. Also note that it would still be hard to enforce.

[Vedestril]

I completely understand what you are saying and understand what it says however the item comes up is a BOD a resource. I see your points and can agree with you but my point is this. If people are doing it and getting away with it due to a "hard to enforce policy" then one of two things need to be fixed. Rework this policy to make it so people can no longer do the task at hand or let everyone collect BODs. I for one have been on shards that allow use of BOD collectors and if anything it helped make prices of items increase as leather is still needed, ingots are still need, and wood is still needed. This made it so people who didn't care for crafting could still collect and sell to those who did. The only big difference is on other shards they were skill capped although not all of them.

I for one think that BODs should be an exception because they are basically a "quest" and allow you something to do for reward which is nice. I would go as far as saying if you can macro/script BODs that you could increase the overall time to 6 or 8 hours to collect a BOD if there was a worry of too many being collected.

Either way everyone I asked on the Shard in person couldn't seem to answer this exact question and considered just starting as they felt it was not clearly defined either.

The use of macros or scripts is allowed, as long as you actively monitor the game. Unless otherwise specified, this applies to all parts and aspects of activities on this shard.

If I'm fishing and watching Netflix (dual monitor) and I look over at my screen once every 5-10 minutes for roughly 5-10 seconds every hour that matches up to about 1 minute an hour I actually looked at my screen. This would be considered monitoring the game. I can make sure I do all AFK checks while doing this process if I got one.

If I'm scripting a BOD collector I am playing the game no more than 1-5 minutes at a time (depending on how many characters and involved the script/macro is) I can do this depending on skill level up to 24 times a day. If I check to make sure that I am online and collecting - monitoring the game - for some of these processes what is the difference? I've watched my computer log me in from a distance and do what it is supposed to do and log off. I monitored the game for roughly the same amount of time someone who is mining/lumbering/fishing is doing so I see them being the same.

Again it is all on the context of how you see and understand the rules. I'm not trying to bend the rules and I'm certainly not trying to break the rules. I am trying to get a better understanding of the rules.

I mentioned this in my last comment as well. I 100% believe a GM should review this and consider making changes to solve this issue. I don't feel its okay that some are able to collect because of something said in the past because they know they can't be caught because that gives an unfair advantage to everyone who is trying to live more by the rules. I'm not saying people are BOD collecting but I've walked past houses that have stacks and stacks of BODs that are not filled chilling for the world to see. I feel like someone who is trying to get something out of their BODs certainly aren't going to collect a ton of BODs and just let them sit.

[Yoda]

I don't see this as a big deal at all, little to no impact on the game.

If someone has alot of bod's at their house .. it shouldn't bother you, it doesn't affect you even slightly

[Opopanax]

I read your post Yoda and I was initially inclined to disagree with you due to depreciation of rewards, but then I went on to look at my own bod spreadsheet and the data. I've collected over 1000 bods over the course of quite some time, and the total number of Large bods that I have completed for colored leather is... 4

I know that some small bods have okay rewards too, but I've completed less than 10 because the others I need are part of a set that have a potentially decent reward (20-30% chance maybe).

I think that's part of why I have given up collecting bods now, over 1000 bods to fill in 4 large is too much.

[Vedestril]

I don't see this as a big deal at all, little to no impact on the game.

If someone has alot of bod's at their house .. it shouldn't bother you, it doesn't affect you even slightly

I don't mind that someone else has a lot of BODs in their home. It doesn't have a concern to me. The concern to me is how did they get them. Did they legit collect them or use a script? If they used a script is that considered cheating. If not then awesome! I will use my script to collect BODs. If it is cheating then why have they not been punished for not only doing it but then showing off that they are doing it to people passing by?

My point is BOD collecting should be allowed as like you said it has little to no impact on the game. It is something fun to do in my free time. The question I have has little to no concern of what other people did before or why haven't they been punished/remove or whatever. It is CAN YOU. If I can then I would like to and if I cannot then okay I will not but as someone else mentioned GMs stated that they can not prove you are running a script with our current policy so that would mean we are working under a broken system that needs to be fixed so it gives a leveled playing field to everyone.

I think that's part of why I have given up collecting bods now, over 1000 bods to fill in 4 large is too much.

This is exactly why I think BOD collecting should be okay. A large number of BODs give rewards that aren't anything more than cosmetic and the really good BODs take a lot of time to collect the correct smaller BODs to fill. If the reason for not allowing BOD collecting is economy then I feel BODs should be increased to 6-8 hours for collecting. This would reduce the amount of BODs someone can collect.

[culichi]

ive always understood the afk rule to be its ok so long as there is no gain besides skill raises.
i personally feel that allowing automated bod gathering is extremely unfair to players that dont have the skills to write such a script or even just set it up. running an automated bod gathering script for just one month would net you about 11k of the good bods and twice that if you just collected the minimal skill bods. 11k good bods would dwarf most bod collections on the server and thats just after one month of collecting. sorry for the bod tangent hehe im very protective of the bod system and will get worked up over it.
i think the afk macroing rule of no gains other than skill gains is close enough to fair taking into account the amount of time it would take staff to review every possibilty and write up rules for all of them.

[Vedestril]

ive always understood the afk rule to be its ok so long as there is no gain besides skill raises.

I understand this and get this and am behind this statement.

personally feel that allowing automated bod gathering is extremely unfair to players

This is also a very very good statement as I feel it is 100% accurate

This is my problem as I stated before in other posts.

However, it was posted by one of the GMs on forums (I forget who) that it is impossible for them to tell whether or not someone is AFK while trying to get BODs because their policy is to be absolutely sure that you are doing wrong before punishment - they want to catch you in the act

This statement means.... some people who have been here longer than others know they can get away with it. The only reason I haven't started BOD gathering is because I following the statements you just said.

I think that I may have provided too many details

The same person after stating that a GM basically said it was okay we cant catch you then wants to retract the statement by quoting the rules.

Look, everyone knows or should know the rules. I am not trying to break the rules. This is why I am asking. I feel people who heard the original GM statement go ohhhh I can't be caught I'm going to gather but people like me want to play by the rules.

Think of it like this. Had I known that insider information prior to this post. I could have gathered BODs knowing I couldn't be caught and no one would have know anything. You would one day just start seeing Ved's gear pop up on vendors or whatever. This is my problem 100%. People who have played the Shard longer and who heard the GM say this go and collect BODs afk while people like me fall behind. How do you feel that is fair? That is why I am addressing this because I asked people on the Shard what they knew on this subject prior to this post and no one seemed to give me a 100% answer of can you or can you not. I understand the rules and what they say and understand that is should be illegal but under the current shard policies you can't be punished or even caught for that matter so it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

dont have the skills to write such a script or even just set it up

I love to address scripting as scripting is only as detailed as you want it to be. You can do a script very easy. I address this because I can explain to you how easy it really is.

Open Razor/UO steam and go to macros. Be standing in the location of what you would like to collecting. Hit record. Do the actions you would normally do in the collecting process. Stop your recording and save. All you need to do then is place a timer with "pause (amount of time you want to wait)" for UO steam or "insert wait timer (amount of time you want to wait)" razor until you want to do the action again. Click Loop.

You now have a macro to collect. You do this when you do skill gains and the same procedure can be done for nearly every element of the game it all depends on how simple/complex it is.


Again, I feel this issue should be addressed by a GM as I feel people are taking advantage of the current rules and BOD gathering should just be lifted from the gathering rules all together as it can not be properly enforced giving a leveled playing field to everyone that wants to collect them.

[Yoda]

so to shorten this thread down, you are requesting

a gm look into this and consider striking this rule from the afk gathering rules altogether.

and as several have implied, they haven't ever jailed or spoken to anyone doing this, due to its unenforceable nature..

so am I to understand that you'd just like this in writing somewhere because.. reasons??

[Vedestril]

so to shorten this thread down, you are requesting

a gm look into this and consider striking this rule from the afk gathering rules altogether.

and as several have implied, they haven't ever jailed or spoken to anyone doing this, due to its unenforceable nature..

so am I to understand that you'd just like this in writing somewhere because.. reasons??

The short answer to all of your questions is yes.

The reason is simply so the question doesn't come up again and everyone knows its okay not just the few who heard a GM say it in the past.

[Yoda]

no I don't think they will do that and here is the reason.

Although I don't think they will invest time into policing this, they aren't going to issue that sort of all clear, because it would go from being an outlier problem, to a common thing. which I doubt staff wants.

strike it on the official and someone could as you outlined earlier in the thread "simply hit record...."

either way.. who cares.. bigger fish to fry, like quite literally every other fish

[Vedestril]

it would go from being an outlier problem, to a common thing

It wouldn't be because it be seen as okay and not a problem at all.

either way.. who cares.. bigger fish to fry, like quite literally every other fish

This is exactly why I think it should be okay. This would make it to you no longer have to worry about it instead of it being a problem.

I do have an alternative as I like to solve these sort of problems. The BOD system could also have a check just like while mining. Every time you collect a BOD you have a x% chance to have a pop up that you have to answer/type whatever. This can be random. This will make it so you can't AFK macro and keep the current policy in place. I however do not know how hard a system like that is to set up but this could be a way to solve it.