Champion Spawn changes

[Dramoor]

This is how I see the new champ spawn system.

You have 5 mules, I have instaheal a great weapon with whirlwind.

While your 5 mules are killing one monster, I am killing 7 to 10.

So most likely the vet or instahealer who can whirlwind attack more mobs at once while your pets are helping you one at a time, do less mobs per however it is calculated.

Champ comes out, with the limited ps now to go out, why would I not want to pull my 5 imprisoned pets out and sick them on him now, So my 5 imps > your 5 Mules, my Axe or weap due to my str being higher, I do more dmg on the champion.

So Vets have still have the advantage...And Fire Champ, that guy goes down so fast, forget about trying that one when vets are there, better to just leave.

My thoughts on it.

[Unbeliever]

I just about agree with you completely, Dramoor. For the record, the reason I invoked the name of the CyS guild is because your guildies appear to be the most powerful players I know. It wasn't any gripe. Not only do I enjoy talking with several members of the guild but I never play the 'poor newb who's jealous of vets' game.

That's just how it is - powerful players have more, get more, and rightfully so. I wouldn't ask to have Sgail or Touria watered down so that weak players could do them or ask for handouts. But my post and yours agree totally on one point - if the champ system now works the way it sounds and appeared to at Tokuno, then newer/weaker players who show up at a champ where veterans are already active might as well either go home or wrap their minds around settling for gold only. And newer/weaker players who are doing a champ in the absence of veterans will be praying that none show up, because if they pop in circa 3rd->4th tier transition, they're back to the original choice of gold or go home.

That's not vets 'still' having an advantage. It's a whole new world of advantage. Being able to pop in very late on a champ and be nearly assured of getting one of what are now limited amounts of powerscrolls; moreover, keeping them out of the hands of weaker/newer players in the process is completely new - if I understand the way this works now. There's a chance I don't, which is why I asked for clarification.

My biggest beef is that creating this situation was not one of the stated goals of the change. If it works this way now and that's how staff wants it to work out, then that's fine with me. It'll just be one more thing I don't participate in until I get a whole lot more powered up. But if it's not working that way now, I'd like to know so that I can feel safer about committing time towards doing them again. And if it's working that way but not intended, then I just want to give feedback that may or may not be useful in tweaking it.

[+Nyx]

Our goal is never to really alienate the younger players. Sometimes issues arise that are complex and it's difficult to figure out a solution and see the full scope of how it will affect the shard, the economy, the players at their various tiers of geared-ness. Right now, Coli is very pleased with the solutions he came up with for champs, and isn't going to be willing to change it based on forum posts. He wants to let it run and see how it affects all these factors over time. If, in a few months, it seems like the new players are really getting beaned in this new champ system, he'll likely make adjustments. Until then, everyone should just test it as much as they like and as best they can, so that Coli's beloved logs will reflect how well (or how not-well) this system is really working.

[Unbeliever]

Thank you +Nyx. That's eminently reasonable.

[Annachie]

Someone announced the Doom champ the other night. I think I was the third one there with five nobles. The other guys were hard hitters dropping druid spells and such.

Some really hard hitters showed up as well.

Somehow I got two 115 scrolls and the skull, and a cash drop.

I'm not sure it's working as expected.

[+Colibri]

Then all of these points are added to an overall score, but have different weights. I'll keep that a secret, and also it might be tweaked a bit, but roughly speaking, 2/3 of the overall score depends on activity (mostly time, and some based on damage to spawn). the 1/3 is based on how much damage (and any damage at all) was given to the champion.

Few things that still need to be done:
...
- Some extra points based on account age, giving newbies a bit better score (about 15-20%).

So... a lot, hopefully not too much, depends on whether you were there and helped, even if just a little bit.
Also the damage to champion is not considered fully just in terms of hitpoints damaged to champion, a reasonable portion is also considered whether you have done any damage to the champion at all. So to compare a newbie that just runs around with a bow, and a fully relayered veteran, their points are distributed roughly 33%-66%. Fair bigger chance for the veteran, but still a good chance for the newbie to get a scroll and a good amount of gold.

[ahorton12]

Im not sure how pets are added on to the totals, is it going to be a pet for all champs going or are there points diminished because pets will take a champ down quicker because the player with those pets has 5 things attacking, in case of imps/ nobles there doing alot of pack damage. Vet players using just there bow could never keep up with imp damage.

[Unbeliever]

Im not sure how pets are added on to the totals, is it going to be a pet for all champs going or are there points diminished because pets will take a champ down quicker because the player with those pets has 5 things attacking, in case of imps/ nobles there doing alot of pack damage. Vet players using just there bow could never keep up with imp damage.

Vets could also pop out five imps AND use their bow. Kinda more likely than newbs doing it since imps are ridiculously expensive. Newbs are usually rocking mules if anything and are heavily dependent on them. Nerfing pet damage vs. player damage would make things really hard for that group.

[Kevan]

I think these changes are great if I understand them correctly.

As an example: Player A is a newbie, Player B is a vet. They are the only two players that do this champ, for sake of ease of the example.

There are 100,000 "points" available. I realize that's not the true number, but for discussion purposes, I had to pick a figure to start from.

Player A attends the champion spawn from the first moment, and gets the champ to level 3 by themselves. Player B joins at level 3 and both players participate until the champ is dead. Of the total damage down for waves 1-4, Player A does 100% of the damage of waves 1-2 but only 20% of waves 3-4 & the champ. The total participation points, based on the original 100,000 points, is 66,000. In this scenario, let's say that Player A gets 16,500+8,250 points for time spent (in other words, they get 100% of waves 1-2 and 50% of waves 3-champ) and 16,500+3,300 points for damage dealt to waves 1-4. Player B gets 8,250 points for time spent and 13,200 points for damage dealt to waves 3-4.

On the champ itself, Player A does as 20% described above. Player B does the 80% described above. Player A gets 6,800 points and Player B gets 27,200 points.

In total, after the Champ is dead, Player A has a total of 51350 points, player B has 48650 points. Although Player A was there longer, possibly even 10-15 minutes longer depending on their speed with waves 1-2, Player B quickly caught up to Player A, particularly by "carrying" their group against the champ and doing most of the damage.

3 scrolls are eligible to be handed out, player A has a 51.35% chance on a seperate roll for each scroll. There's even a 13.54% chance that Player A will receive all 3. The gold is divvied up similarly.

In situations such as above, when there are more players and more vets participating, the newbie might only score 5 or 10% of the overall points, with the modifier for being a newbie. Maybe out of 4 eligible scrolls, they only have a 15% chance of winning each. Yet, even then, with 3 other players at the champ with them, they might take 2 of the scrolls 2% of the time. In other words, a 1 out of 50 chance that they'll take 2 scrolls. It will happen occasionally but it's highly unlikely. But at least it gives even the worst equipped new players a chance at scrolls, while statistically rewarding (even with the occasional shaft) the veterans.

If that's how it works.. bravo. You can reduce the amount of scrolls coming into the market and make them more valuable, and divvy them up in a way that's fair to all.

[+Colibri]

Ok after some thought about how to make newbies get a bit bigger cut to compensate for "newbieness", the player's "rewards" based on account age will be like this:
https://www.google.si/#q=1-arctan%28x*0.05%29%2Fpi*2
where x is number of days in the account age. the 0.05 factor might be tweaked a bit.

There's still the issue of only veterans being here... if the portion of the reward, that is based on account age, is 50% (for better illustration), and if two players are at the champion - one 1 year old, the other 2 years old, then the 1 year old would get roughly 66% of the 20%, and the older player would get 33% of the 20% (0.035 vs 0.017), which is not how it's supposed to be, considering that both of them are veterans. So i'll use another arctan to determine how much ages of players should be considered, all based on the age of the youngest player. If the youngest player is 0 days old, then the age factor plays 20%... if the youngest player is 3 months old, the age factor is just 20%*0.13 (for example)... and with the players of 1&2 years of age, there's practically no difference.

I'm also considering giving pets damage a bit less weight ... not sure what percentage/factor would be correct here, but a little cant hurt.

And a "skull" on Kronus so that there's something to fight for