The True Purpose of Gold Sinks?

[Dramoor]

Disable dungeon recalling, and AFK druid spell macro spam at champs, both these things have huge income.
Have players needing too actively play too gain alot more, and watch how alot less gold sinks are needed..... and Netflix lose customers lol

That is false, the gold would just go to someone else, nothing else would be different. Then someone would complain that the "rail writers" are now just running entire dungeons nonstop....Then we would get afk checked while killing anything every 10 to 30 minutes and what would that do? I dunno but it would probably upset a bunch of newer players that can't answer cuz they are killing and then were jailed, or died and lost their stuff from answering while killing...

Circle of life. Want Want Want.

[Ayik]

Giving everyone free titan's hammers has been suggested hundreds of times too. Doesn't make it a good idea. Just because many people suggest the same thing does not in any way lend merit or value to the idea itself. Lots of people think alike or want the same things, but that doesn't mean they're intelligent, informed, or have the proper motives in mind.

Hehe yes, i agree. You dont have too tell me this.
But these sorts of threads are very common, and have been discussed for a very long time now. Many suggestions are given some are intelligent some are informed and some are the direct opposed but who am i too judge in that matter. But still we have the same problem and the solutions that have been put in are great , but all temporarily.
Poeple will always bitch and moan when things change, especially in videogames. As said before by someone else, Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Disable dungeon recalling, and AFK druid spell macro spam at champs, both these things have huge income.
Have players needing too actively play too gain alot more, and watch how alot less gold sinks are needed..... and Netflix lose customers lol

That is false, the gold would just go to someone else, nothing else would be different. Then someone would complain that the "rail writers" are now just running entire dungeons nonstop....Then we would get afk checked while killing anything every 10 to 30 minutes and what would that do? I dunno but it would probably upset a bunch of newer players that can't answer cuz they are killing and then were jailed, or died and lost their stuff from answering while killing...

Circle of life. Want Want Want.

Yeps your spot on, and i have thought of this as well. But the thing is Dramoor, im not saying we need to go with what i said, but we need to start somewhere... or would you rather keep reading and responding too the never ending inflation threads.
I mean if your waiting for Superman too come out with the best perfect serene, intelligent, informed, ying yang, peacefull. happy ponies for everyone solution.. keep waiting till you hair falls out.

I mean your just as much assuming what will happen if they disable dungeon recalling, as much as people assuming the recall macro is a problem. You could think of a million solutions.. and a million negative reactions on the change. So best just do nothing ay?

[walter]

Why do we have gold sinks?
1. People always find better ways to pile up money (either doing things faster or finding more profitable businesses) -> they need to spend it to keep economy smooth
2. Gold sinks are additional challenges. All of them are optional, the players join voluntarily because they want the reward.

Inflation
Do you really see inflation here? For me it's deflation, many/most items used to be 2-4 times bigger than today's prices. So, when you buy something today, be happy, you are having 25%-50% off compared to years ago. If you don't agree selling so cheap, try selling for a fair price. Surely this is the best thing you do to help shard's economy.
Many people rant when they see prices changing, but what about the impact in the players? Does this affect directly our gameplay? Prices will always change (in any direction), they also can't get too steady, otherwise we can get other problems.

One of the most awesome aspects of this shard is to have a very large commerce among players (just count how much stuff you buy/sell from/to NPCs and stones). This makes this shard's economy to float in several items or aspects, that I've never seen in other shard, and I am very happy with that, even if my life is not easier today because of this. It's super cool to see a shard behaving more like a real world.

EDs / Donations -> As separated/limited concurrency they don't cause inflation. They are just meant to be a way to incentive people to help funding the shard costs. The server real life balance is under staff responsibility, why players would need to know it?
Why could someone be so greedy with staff here (asking for transparency), if this is not done in any other place?
I mean, do you ask everybody how much they profit from you?
If you compare to any other online game or even mobile app, you will see very easily that staff always have been generous here. Many games don't allow you to buy equivalent of EDs using gold, but here you can, isn't this good enough already?

[Asmodean]

To Ayik: Did you miss part of +Nyx's post that you quoted? Or did you just stop reading after the first part? I'll quote it here for you

You're only seeing half a dozen players recall farming nowadays, because the other 1 dozen who usually do it have since made rails scripts for the fel dungeons. They'd just start using those in the tram dungeons as well, and nothing would have changed at all except a huge step backward for the shard, massive outcry and drama from the players and so on.

When they made the changes to fel dungeons, recalling around tram dungeons did go down. I used to see many more people at the spots i normally go to than I do, and I'm sure +Nyx has an even greater perspective as staff.

To nobody in particular:

One of the reasons i picked Excelsior to play on was because you didn't HAVE to donate to get the best stuff. You could buy it with in game gold. There are only a couple other shards out there that offer that that i've seen.

You want to hold 500 items on another shard? $50, $100, whatever their pricing scheme is IF THEY EVEN OFFER IT! There is no other way to get that particular perk, other than donating, which obviously works for them. Here, you can save up 1.25 mil gold, and buy 25 ED with it, and increase your item limit in your backpack by 25 at a time. How awesome is that? Not $0.01 out of your own pocket.

[Ayik]

Why do we have gold sinks?


Inflation
Do you really see inflation here?

The regular stuff like PS, jackals, batwings etc are becoming less and less needed by the majority on the server. With the growing population these items are being farmed faster then the people can consume. And farming them is very easy to do, so also players that have already gotten the item, will still hunt for it... to sell it. So it is true. this part is where deflation is occuring.

But the inflation that is caused from diffrent aspects on the shard outweights the deflation as described above.

[Ayik]

To Ayik: Did you miss part of +Nyx's post that you quoted? Or did you just stop reading after the first part? I'll quote it here for you

You're only seeing half a dozen players recall farming nowadays, because the other 1 dozen who usually do it have since made rails scripts for the fel dungeons. They'd just start using those in the tram dungeons as well, and nothing would have changed at all except a huge step backward for the shard, massive outcry and drama from the players and so on.

I suspect you mean a massive outcry from a certain type of players, but not all.

I read it. But its the same stuff just repeating over and over on these forums, so i simply repeated to preserve a trend.
Its what i said before, the shard is very lenient and almost promoting automatic gameplay. As in approving all sorts of macro programs, offering bags of holding , bags of sending , resource bags , almost infinite charges on tools etc wich aid in long extended times grinding, with little to no downtime. And aid less use in casual gameplay, cause you would be taking breaks.

The problems too why we are having this discussing again lays way deeper then one might think. And too solve it, there would prolly be a huge overhaul of several things needed. But as long as you only come up with temporarily solutions and not make any drastic changes, these sort of threads will keep repeating itself.
You could sit here writing and writing.. pondering about what the most intelligent choice is.. measuring prides and ego's, but in the end none will be the wiser. That stone on the path wont dissapear by just repeatedly staring and overthinking at it. Damned if you do damned if you dont, you already know your going too lose.. so why not give the stone a nudge and see where it leads you, and go from there.
People will be people, and be most likely pissed off regardless of a change that might work out in the long run.
Qoute - Two legs good four legs bllleeeetter.

You want to hold 500 items on another shard? $50, $100, whatever their pricing scheme is IF THEY EVEN OFFER IT! There is no other way to get that particular perk, other than donating, which obviously works for them. Here, you can save up 1.25 mil gold, and buy 25 ED with it, and increase your item limit in your backpack by 25 at a time. How awesome is that? Not $0.01 out of your own pocket.

Maybe its this expensive too get more items in your backpack, because they know how game changing/breaking it is, and want too keep it very very exclusive.. i dunno. Have you ever asked them the reasons behind it?
I mean on this shard they promote voting for the server, by giving the exact reward most are after, and in this case can be translated into $ bills. Number 1 spot guaranteed, wich means people will most likely visit that server. And then we go on the forums talking how the economy is changing and how much maintenance and demands are being added by the ever so growing population. No system on how to run a shard is perfect, its whatever works for the owners.
Ofcourse UOex also recieves selfless voters too aid the shard. But how many roughly?

About voting in January: I would like to thank the 27 players that continued to vote even though the reward stone was removed.

27 players, out of how many usual voters?

I'm sure +Nyx has an even greater perspective as staff.

Very true, but do you think a staff member would also go thru all the routines a player would go thru daily? I know +R has been a player once, but im not sure if he actually still plays the shard without god powers. I think adding the player perspective combined with a staff perspective makes a much more clear picture. So whats the harm in sharing mine.

[Asmodean]

I actually meant:

because the other 1 dozen who usually do it have since made rails scripts for the fel dungeons. They'd just start using those in the tram dungeons as well,

Think of it like radar, and radar detectors. The police come out with a new radar system. People who like to speed find a way to defeat it. The police come out with a new radar system. People who like to speed find a way to defeat it. The police come out with a new radar system. People who like to speed find a way to defeat it.

See a pattern here?

Until you can prevent people from using 3rd party programs, or remove the desire to do things automated, you can't win. So, you can either make like miserable for the 95% of the shard that plays nice, to delay the inevitable, in a never ending cycle, or you can find a place where you know people will be abusing things, and minimize it the best you can without making life miserable for everyone. I think the rock jail has been a huge success in that regard. It actually holds people accountable for their actions much more than regular jail.

I'm sure if they really wanted to, they could go on a hiring spree, and have people to afk check people every 10 minutes, but what would that accomplish? I'd get pretty gosh darned upset rather quickly as someone who was trying to play a game.

My point is disabling recalling means people are going to ditch their recall scripts, and get rail scripts. Whats next, you have to enter a captcha so you can move 10 steps, where you have to re-enter a captcha to attack a mob, which requires you to answer a math question before you can use a bandage on yourself, and then correct the grammar in a sentence so you can use your weapon ability? How far do you take it?

I will say i agree with certain things being a bit too lenient, but as far as disabling recalling, i don't think anything good would come of it. If you want no-recall, try fel, or ilshenar dungeons.

[+Nyx]

There are so many threads like this because so many players want to throw out their 2cents, and so many think they know the best way to fix it. Because players have such easy access to the staff's attention on our shard - a relative luxury when you consider other free shards and other video games - opinion threads pop up all the time. Everyone wants to be the one to come up with the magic solution, but it's nearly always the same routine. The same ideas get suggested because everybody wants to say their piece regardless, but they don't get implemented because the staff members in charge do not think it is a good idea for the shard. Y'all can make threads like this until the end of the earth, but it isn't going to make the ideas any different than the last time someone suggested them. These threads eventually get locked because they're usually just a few people regurgitating the same uncreative suggestions as last time - "disable recalling in dungeon!", "take out relayers!" and so on. It's very easy to throw out a backward-step "solution", but really those are not solutions at all, as I said before. They'll just make the folks doing the farming change their method and keep farming just as much, so then we'd end up with "stop the rails macros!" threads instead of "stop the recallers" threads. Ayik, you seem to have glossed over this - twice - but that's the big thing there. Why implement something that changes nothing and angers half or more of the shard population? There isn't a reason good enough. This is exactly why these threads don't last - these suggestions do not help the shard at all. They are an idea based on an extremely narrow view of the shard and of the issue.

I think the implication that the staff are essentially out of touch with what it's like for a player because we may or may not actually play as players is silly. Not to mention a little insulting, considering how much time I spend here monitoring the shard, talking to the players, reading the forums, and working on fixes for issues. Whether we play as players or not, it takes a lot more than that to understand what the shard needs and what is best for it. By your same logic, because you are not staff and do not have access to the level of information that we do then you can't possibly have any helpful input so why are you even commenting on these issues - since you can't possibly be as informed or have the proper perspective needed to make these decisions. See? It's just illogical and silly. I spent time reading this thread in its entirety, giving weight and thought to each post, because I do believe that it is possible for players to have good suggestions even though their perspective is far smaller than the staff's. I gave intelligent, informed replies to the input provided even though it's the thousandth time I've had to reply to these exact same suggestions that do nothing to help the shard. The least y'all can do is extend the staff the courtesy of refraining from implying that we don't understand the players' issues because we're staff.

I let this thread have its day, but if nobody has any new thoughts I'm going to lock it later tonight. Nothing new or helpful has been suggested and everyone has gotten off-topic. The original poster's questions have long since been answered and yet another silly debate about the same silly backward-motion ideas isn't needed.

[Pariah]

Hey, I resent this thread being linked to the Economic Downturn thread. We at least had SOME new ideas (current destash raffle being spawned there). Personally, I think the more focus we can put on a) making existing items of more value, b) creating new content aimed at all audiences (Mistvale items and dungeons were released a bit early thanks to +Nyx's response to the Economic downturn thread), c) collectively agreeing as a community to stop enabling newer players thus devaluing our items even more (some of this is helped with the destash raffle and auctions), and d) finding and recruiting enough players and talent to implement NEW content and suggestions, the better our shard will be. I've poured over the forums and most of the custom and fun content in the early days was coded by volunteers, approved and implemented under +Coli's supervision (don't know how realistic this is anymore). In the last 6 months or so, we've had Mistvale, the destash raffle, Felucca dungeon overhauls, and many more I'm probably missing. What has that been met with? More complaining and whining about how not everyone was included (Newsflash, in life, not everyone gets a trophy). Be patient, even more content is coming with Elysium, Touria, and a treasure hunting overhaul. However, we have only 3 staff members trying to create new content, manage all player issues, run events, etc. It's not tenable. Want some cool new content or items? Go code them and try to revive the suggestions/development area. We can't take a macro approach to this thing. The world is too large and complex for rolling back features and functionality. And, to be put most simply, we don't have the resources to implement an overhaul on that scale. However, I can vouch that if you can come up with a positive and implementable solution (tip: try to focus on ONE area/thing), the staff will respond. Throwing the "ban this behavior" solution just isn't going to get you anywhere.

[jimmy]

well put +N bring on the new faciets

[louis077]

Well this thread got "de-railed" (no pun intended ) in a hurry...... To summarize my original post. I don't think its being unruly or greedy to ask for more transparency on where the donations go. A lot of other free shards don't even give you gold / rewards when you donate. If people were being genuine when they donated then this wouldn't matter. But sadly we know that most people are selfish and wouldn't donate if this were the case. If this is really a "community" we are trying to support then lets be upfront about everything. Something as simple as a donation bar to the website would be an easy addition.

Otherwise, I say buy all of lestatzero's ED's for cash before he quits and treat all ED's like the free market they are implied to be.

[+Nyx]

Well this thread got "de-railed" (no pun intended ) in a hurry...... To summarize my original post. I don't think its being unruly or greedy to ask for more transparency on where the donations go. A lot of other free shards don't even give you gold / rewards when you donate. If people were being genuine when they donated then this wouldn't matter. But sadly we know that most people are selfish and wouldn't donate if this were the case. If this is really a "community" we are trying to support then lets be upfront about everything. Something as simple as a donation bar to the website would be an easy addition.

This is a community, regardless of whether or not Colibri decides to post the monthly donation numbers. Colibri is the only one who receives the donations, and he is the only one who can view or control them so that would have to be his decision. The shard has worked just fine thus far with the current system, though, so I don't foresee that changing. Everyone should donate as much as they feel comfortable with, when they feel comfortable doing so. If that's never, that's fine, you're still welcome to play here.

Otherwise, I say buy all of lestatzero's ED's for cash before he quits and treat all ED's like the free market they are implied to be.

It is allowed for players to sell their game items/currency for RL money if they so choose. Colibri thinks it adds a nice option for folks who need or want to recupe some of their donations or their time spent earning it. It isn't allowed to advertise directly, though. Another important thing to note when viewing these "leaving the shard" sales is that many players will occasionally say they are quitting in order to drum up extra interest in their items for sale. They clear off a fair amount of their stuff, then they keep playing. So, if you're trying to 'help' someone who's quitting, be wary, this is usually a marketing scheme more than an actual effort to leave the shard.

In the end, there are several options for any player who wants to purchase ED. Whether you decide to buy it with gold, donate to the shard, or purchase it from another player for RL money is completely up to you. Just be aware of the different pros and cons of each option and make an educated decision that is best for you.

[Asmodean]

Well this thread got "de-railed" (no pun intended ) in a hurry...... To summarize my original post. I don't think its being unruly or greedy to ask for more transparency on where the donations go. A lot of other free shards don't even give you gold / rewards when you donate. If people were being genuine when they donated then this wouldn't matter. But sadly we know that most people are selfish and wouldn't donate if this were the case. If this is really a "community" we are trying to support then lets be upfront about everything. Something as simple as a donation bar to the website would be an easy addition.

Otherwise, I say buy all of lestatzero's ED's for cash before he quits and treat all ED's like the free market they are implied to be.

Why is it any of our business how much people are donating, or how exactly those donations are being used? They are donations, aka: A donation is a gift given by physical or legal persons, typically for charitable purposes and/or to benefit a cause. The cause here is to keep the server up and running so we have a place to play. We don't need to know more than that. Also, then you will get people requesting to donate anonymously rather than using the automated system so their donations aren't seen, which just adds more headache to +Colibri, because now he either needs to add that functionality, or handle it personally, which just wastes time. I would be one of those players. If i donate, its not anybody's business except Colibri's.

Perhaps my views would be different if this were a publicly traded company, or if i was purchasing something but its not, and I'm not, nor are you. Colibri doesn't have to give ED for donations. He does so as a thank you. If he removed it, people would still donate, because they like to play here. Probably far less, and the place might get shut down, but is that a risk you're willing to take?

If i send you $50 for your birthday, will you give me view access to your bank account, and credit card statements so i know where you like to spend your money? Its none of my business, nor do i need to know what you do with the $50 i gave you. Such as it is here.

[Unbeliever]

@Ayik - I'd like to share a few more things to think about just in case you're still on the fence about this subject.

First: What makes prices on certain desirable items rise out of control and become difficult or impossible for average players to obtain is not the total gold that exists on the server among all players. It is economic inequality. The players with the most gold compete with each other in bidding wars or spend a lot without a care for high prices because they can afford it, driving up costs on desirable items. Average players think "Well, if I farm gold for a month straight maybe I can afford that.", they feel defeated before they even get started, and then they suggest blocking dungeon recalling. But 1) Any change you make to a game system affects all players, both skilled veterans and average Joes. You're mistakenly thinking that you can cut off just veterans from just veteran activities and that simply isn't true. You make things harder or easier for everyone. 2) As has been said, motivated players will find a way to achieve greater-than-average success no matter what. and 3) Economic inequality - if you (hypothetically) made gameplay so hard that the average player's earning potential was 100gp/day, some players would work harder/longer/better than average and pull 2000gp/day and there is no way to stop that, even if it were desirable to do so. And then something that cost 10,000gp would be "inflated" and a hefty feat for the average player to afford. It's not really about how much rich players spend but how much more they spend than average players can earn. It's only scale that makes it appear otherwise.

Second: Because all that is true, staff here rightly assumes that "inflation" is a foregone conclusion. Instead of wasting time trying to stop the unstoppable, they combat its effects. Thus gold sinks, and very effective and fun ones. I always buy Trinsic raffle tickets although I haven't won a single one yet. It's exciting to participate in and take a chance at winning big, with the added bonus of helping out the server. I also sit in for every auction I can even if I know I won't be able to afford anything. They're a blast to watch and be a part of in any role. Take a look sometime at the yellow deeds in Town Center outside the auction room showing how much gold the gold sinks vaporized. You can't argue with results like that.

Third: If you think players watching a script earn mass quantities of gold is lame, you're entitled to that opinion. But as an FYI, this is another thing you always see on every UO server. Whether it's officially allowed or not, there are always players using EUO or a similar program. Always with protestations of innocence and indignation at accusations regarding their "leetness". Sometimes people get caught; most times they don't. And if it isn't EUO or Steam, they create very complicated macros in Razor and watch their toons make a fortune. I thought it was brilliant that EUO and the like were allowed here with limits for the same reason the gold sinks are great. You can't stop them and it would be a waste of time and words trying. Instead they embrace it and just try to curb the worst of its effects. And with AFK captchas popping up and staff popping in personally to check on players, I think they're doing a pretty fair job of catching AFKers and keeping most players honest.