We try to set up penalties so that the majority of players who are going to violate a rule, do so and stop at step 1…maybe step 2. Ideally, I would love nothing more than to never have to punish anyone. I work in education and make decisions on student punishment on a weekly basis and it is not a joyous occasion for me or my co-workers (unless they are a teacher who would love nothing more than to get them out of the classroom for some days).
On the player preference between 500 tasks and 14/30 day time jail, you’re right. It is subjective to the player, and there is a likelihood that if it was task vs. time one would outweigh the other. But there are factors in play that are situational, motivational, and emotional from person to person that can tip the scale in either direction. So, it is hard to say which would be more favorable. Occurrence and data wise, the task jail method reduces the number of situations that we encounter when we had a time jail.
I am not disputing that people want to be here, and certainly not disputing the people who are jailed want to be here. I am assuming that most people wouldn’t be going to just about every outlet to get people to listen to them express how they feel about their being removed from the game if they didn’t want to be here. That doesn’t make what they did right, and it doesn’t make them less accountable. Anyway, thank you for your comment on the environment we create and maintain.
The system is designed to penalize anyone who doesn’t follow the rules and respond accordingly. Regardless of if they have remorse or not, can get up and leave to play Xbox Live for the next week or needs to sit down and figure out how to spend their next week, going to start their tasks now or tomorrow after some steam is blown off, going to rage on the forums or going to respectfully post a disagreement thread, send a mad email to Colibri or accept the situation, X tasks is X tasks. You could do them immediately or a week from the jailing. You can do them while mad or depressed about the situation, you can intend to be a more vindictive player in the future or strive to be a better one (not saying a jailing = bad player), or whatever. Task completion guarantees that no matter what mindset or intent the player has, they will have to do “X” before they can play. Therefore, I need to avoid doing “this” if I don’t want to get “X” which will get in the way of my playing. I could have the desire to play today or a month from now, but I HAVE to complete “X” before I do so.
Task reduction…I will say that there are times that has happened. It is conditional, always has to do with the player's past and current demeanor with staff as well as players, and is not based on how long they have been IN jail (independent of task completion). It is to our discretion if we decide to do so. But, we need to feel sure that doing something like that will not end blowing up in our face.
Also, never underestimate a troll with a ton of free time.
+V
Unfair jail sentence
Re: Unfair jail sentence
-{Excelsior Shard Administrator, and Death Event Extraordinaire}-
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
Re: Unfair jail sentence
What about a kind of "time off with good behavior" kind of thing?
Sentenced to 500 tasks. What if the person logs in everyday and does their tasks without complaint, thus showing their dedication and desire to want to be on the shard? So when this person gets to 300-350-400, they are paroled?
Sentenced to 500 tasks. What if the person logs in everyday and does their tasks without complaint, thus showing their dedication and desire to want to be on the shard? So when this person gets to 300-350-400, they are paroled?
Ossy (in-game) - come and say hi
Re: Unfair jail sentence
That may require too much surveillance for the GMs.
After +V's responses, my final opinion, whether it's worth a diamond ring, a cheeseburger, or a Brittney Spears Learn-To-Sing CD, would be along these lines, supporting V's idea and experience that tasks curb behavior better than anything tried thus far:
Using their current system -
1) 2 or 20 jail tasks depending on decay as they mentioned
2) 50 jail tasks and weapon impound for 1 week. After 8 days (in case someone only plays the same day each week), 75% reduction in tasks to 12 tasks.
3) 500 jail tasks and weapon impound for 1 month. After 20 days, 75% reduction in tasks to 125 tasks.
4) 1500 jail tasks and permanent weapon impound. After 60 days, 50% reduction in tasks to 750 tasks.
5) 3000 jail tasks. No reductions.
6) Ban. I don't believe in rehabilitation of multiple offenders. Your mileage may vary.
I think you would still get the dev's commitment to making people put in the time, and the time periods for the reductions are large enough to still encourage repeat offenders who really want to play here on a daily basis to do the tasks. Waiting 8 days instead of doing 50 tasks would never happen for a person who really wants to be here. Waiting 20 days instead of doing 500 tasks would rarely happen either, plus they would still have 125 tasks to do once the 20 days expires anyway. Also, I would require them to do the reduced task amount *after* their time duration has passed, so that they aren't just slowly doing their 125 tasks during the 20 days and minimizing the impact. It would prevent people who start working on tasks, who have done 150 in the first 12 days, to realize they'd rather just wait the next 8 days out and not do anymore tasks and be instantly freed.
After +V's responses, my final opinion, whether it's worth a diamond ring, a cheeseburger, or a Brittney Spears Learn-To-Sing CD, would be along these lines, supporting V's idea and experience that tasks curb behavior better than anything tried thus far:
Using their current system -
1) 2 or 20 jail tasks depending on decay as they mentioned
2) 50 jail tasks and weapon impound for 1 week. After 8 days (in case someone only plays the same day each week), 75% reduction in tasks to 12 tasks.
3) 500 jail tasks and weapon impound for 1 month. After 20 days, 75% reduction in tasks to 125 tasks.
4) 1500 jail tasks and permanent weapon impound. After 60 days, 50% reduction in tasks to 750 tasks.
5) 3000 jail tasks. No reductions.
6) Ban. I don't believe in rehabilitation of multiple offenders. Your mileage may vary.
I think you would still get the dev's commitment to making people put in the time, and the time periods for the reductions are large enough to still encourage repeat offenders who really want to play here on a daily basis to do the tasks. Waiting 8 days instead of doing 50 tasks would never happen for a person who really wants to be here. Waiting 20 days instead of doing 500 tasks would rarely happen either, plus they would still have 125 tasks to do once the 20 days expires anyway. Also, I would require them to do the reduced task amount *after* their time duration has passed, so that they aren't just slowly doing their 125 tasks during the 20 days and minimizing the impact. It would prevent people who start working on tasks, who have done 150 in the first 12 days, to realize they'd rather just wait the next 8 days out and not do anymore tasks and be instantly freed.
Re: Unfair jail sentence
All due respect, I will not support putting task reductions into the codex. It is pretty lenient of Colibri to allow the 1/2 rule to begin with. From what I understand, in this specific case the task amount on one occurrence was completely wiped upon being caught AFK. That is, the player did not have to complete tasks.
I also want to reiterate that staff reducing tasks is a rare occurrence and is done so at our discretion.
We spend enough time deciding whether someone is AFK or not, harassing a player or not, etc etc...That adding a new calculation of if X task done in Y days = Z task reduction is just not feasible.
Why have a policy that you get a periodic reduction of work base on the amount of work you do at a certain interval? A 500 task punishment then doesn't carry with it the same fear that it did when 500 tasks meant 500 tasks. Look at the criteria for getting 500 tasks, there are some steps there. The goal is not to bash people to death with tasks, but to increase intensity of punishment for repeat offenders. Why set standards for staff to reward players with fewer tasks to complete, when they committed the violation that landed them there in the first place? I guess I thought that the early response and situational waiving of the tasks at earlier steps was pretty accommodating. I also thought that if a player with 100 tasks from harassing another player possibly getting a reduction because they wrote an apology to the harassed player would be acceptable too. Hmm...
+V
I also want to reiterate that staff reducing tasks is a rare occurrence and is done so at our discretion.
We spend enough time deciding whether someone is AFK or not, harassing a player or not, etc etc...That adding a new calculation of if X task done in Y days = Z task reduction is just not feasible.
Why have a policy that you get a periodic reduction of work base on the amount of work you do at a certain interval? A 500 task punishment then doesn't carry with it the same fear that it did when 500 tasks meant 500 tasks. Look at the criteria for getting 500 tasks, there are some steps there. The goal is not to bash people to death with tasks, but to increase intensity of punishment for repeat offenders. Why set standards for staff to reward players with fewer tasks to complete, when they committed the violation that landed them there in the first place? I guess I thought that the early response and situational waiving of the tasks at earlier steps was pretty accommodating. I also thought that if a player with 100 tasks from harassing another player possibly getting a reduction because they wrote an apology to the harassed player would be acceptable too. Hmm...
+V
-{Excelsior Shard Administrator, and Death Event Extraordinaire}-
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
Re: Unfair jail sentence
I don't think it's particularly helpful to respond to someone's complaint by trying to reinvent the wheel that was already reinvented a year ago and has proven to be far far more efficient at its purpose of being a true deterrent to bad behavior. This system has been working beautifully all this time, it was debated and discussed for *months* before it was changed. Discussions with the player base were had before and after the changes, and minor adjustments were made. The system works. We had just as many (more, actually, since they didn't care if their post ended up earning them more jail time. They care now.) forum complaints over being jailed back when everyone who was jailed would just log out until it was over. It was only a real "loss" for a small percentage of players, and generally those were the players who either accidentally fell on the wrong side of the codex via RL urgent matters or other things that could easily happen to almost anyone once in a blue moon.
So, the previous jailing system didn't at all hurt the real troublemakers, but it did hurt the ones who had an "oops". This new system was specifically designed to give harsh punishments for repeat violators, while still allowing those who had an "oops" a fair amount of leniency. There are several carebear systems in place with this current jailing system. 1st and 2nd offenses can get a 50% reduction in their tasks within a relatively huge window of time after being moved to jail. The staff can (and FREQUENTLY do) reduce tasks based on their own discretion, which is taken on a case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, nobody's ever really grateful for it or appreciative of it, they just feel entitled to more, but I digress. Violations decay after 3 months - so anybody who has a once-in-a-blue-moon "oops", doesn't have to worry about being upgraded to 500 tasks if they violate by accident 9 months later and again another 6 later.
The jump between 2nd offense and 3rd offense on weapon leveling/farming *is* a huge one. It's that way on purpose. Nobody gets to a 3rd offense by accident. Sure, they will always SAY it wasn't their fault, but believe me - it is, and we have the logs/screenshots/etc to back it up. If you use a leveling/farming script or macro that spams above your head a ton, well - stop using it. Modify it. Or, pay close attention and when you see the sparkles/wall/etc, pause it and wait till you can see the question, answer, and resume. The AFK check is specifically designed to be easy to see and easy to answer if one takes the most basic steps to protect themselves from failing it. It is the player's responsibility to do what they can to show their presence and to ensure they can see the AFK checks within the allotted time.
Kevan, you seem to post frequently with these idealistic thoughts, and while it would be very nice if the little world we have here on Excelsior was that friendly and truthful and huggly, it isn't the reality. You have no idea the amount of crap we take from people nearly every single day. Jailing people is a miserable, irritating, exhausting and demoralizing necessity. We hate it. We'd love it if everyone behaved like adults and followed the rules, but that just isn't human nature, and that's even more true on a video game. Nearly every single time we give any leniency or breaks to people in terms of punishment, they just demand more, or make forum posts about how unfair it all is.
They also try to argue every little semantic nuance of the codex. We have actually heard things like "well it doesn't specifically say I can't cuss someone out in world chat, so you can't punish me for it", "You didn't give me any tasks last time so you can't give me any this time because it isn't covered in the codex", or the ever-favorite "I have rights!". Not to mention the always-fun "I'm a donator" opening, usually followed by "I help the newbies". We aren't going to write specific allowances for task reductions into the codex, it was similar before the rock jail changes and it was a constant nightmare to deal with everyone's me-monster attitudes of why they're so much more important and special and above the rules and therefore are entitled to a reduction or no punishment at all. No, we took those things out of the codex for a reason and it was an excellent decision. We give reductions based on individual situations. We give them often, even. Not that you'll hear it from a buddy who got jailed, no, you'll only hear how they shouldn't have been jailed in the first place and we were so mean.
So, the previous jailing system didn't at all hurt the real troublemakers, but it did hurt the ones who had an "oops". This new system was specifically designed to give harsh punishments for repeat violators, while still allowing those who had an "oops" a fair amount of leniency. There are several carebear systems in place with this current jailing system. 1st and 2nd offenses can get a 50% reduction in their tasks within a relatively huge window of time after being moved to jail. The staff can (and FREQUENTLY do) reduce tasks based on their own discretion, which is taken on a case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, nobody's ever really grateful for it or appreciative of it, they just feel entitled to more, but I digress. Violations decay after 3 months - so anybody who has a once-in-a-blue-moon "oops", doesn't have to worry about being upgraded to 500 tasks if they violate by accident 9 months later and again another 6 later.
The jump between 2nd offense and 3rd offense on weapon leveling/farming *is* a huge one. It's that way on purpose. Nobody gets to a 3rd offense by accident. Sure, they will always SAY it wasn't their fault, but believe me - it is, and we have the logs/screenshots/etc to back it up. If you use a leveling/farming script or macro that spams above your head a ton, well - stop using it. Modify it. Or, pay close attention and when you see the sparkles/wall/etc, pause it and wait till you can see the question, answer, and resume. The AFK check is specifically designed to be easy to see and easy to answer if one takes the most basic steps to protect themselves from failing it. It is the player's responsibility to do what they can to show their presence and to ensure they can see the AFK checks within the allotted time.
Kevan, you seem to post frequently with these idealistic thoughts, and while it would be very nice if the little world we have here on Excelsior was that friendly and truthful and huggly, it isn't the reality. You have no idea the amount of crap we take from people nearly every single day. Jailing people is a miserable, irritating, exhausting and demoralizing necessity. We hate it. We'd love it if everyone behaved like adults and followed the rules, but that just isn't human nature, and that's even more true on a video game. Nearly every single time we give any leniency or breaks to people in terms of punishment, they just demand more, or make forum posts about how unfair it all is.
They also try to argue every little semantic nuance of the codex. We have actually heard things like "well it doesn't specifically say I can't cuss someone out in world chat, so you can't punish me for it", "You didn't give me any tasks last time so you can't give me any this time because it isn't covered in the codex", or the ever-favorite "I have rights!". Not to mention the always-fun "I'm a donator" opening, usually followed by "I help the newbies". We aren't going to write specific allowances for task reductions into the codex, it was similar before the rock jail changes and it was a constant nightmare to deal with everyone's me-monster attitudes of why they're so much more important and special and above the rules and therefore are entitled to a reduction or no punishment at all. No, we took those things out of the codex for a reason and it was an excellent decision. We give reductions based on individual situations. We give them often, even. Not that you'll hear it from a buddy who got jailed, no, you'll only hear how they shouldn't have been jailed in the first place and we were so mean.
Re: Unfair jail sentence
It's true. The violator seems to always be the victim. I especially like the "But, I was at the computer! I just had my browser up."
+V
+V
-{Excelsior Shard Administrator, and Death Event Extraordinaire}-
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
Re: Unfair jail sentence
And "I wasn't AFK, I was at my computer, watching a movie over my UO window".
Re: Unfair jail sentence
I was just reading through all this stuff and figured id chime in. Ive never been to jail and because of that i have no idea how horrible the situation of doing tasks is. i have heard that it is not possible to script jail tasks *Bravo to staff for that* and that each task takes a certain amount of time. sounds good. ive had an idea on how to reduce jail tasks that act as a gold sink. Not sure if it would work. but for the super rich people who would wine about tasks or say they didnt deserve them but the staff has set on those tasks make it cost 1 ed or 50k per task. if you dont want to pay your fine then do your tasks. That would probly be a good way to sink the extra rich's bank account. especially because those who are afk levling weapons that get caught are usually doing it for financial gain.
Like i said, never been to jail. just thought of a way to sink wealth, and hopefully stop the " I got jailed, Boo Hoo" forum posts.
Like i said, never been to jail. just thought of a way to sink wealth, and hopefully stop the " I got jailed, Boo Hoo" forum posts.
Eziekial Moss
Re: Unfair jail sentence
"But the Chitauri were invading New York, and I had to help The Avengers fight them off!"
-{Excelsior Shard Administrator, and Death Event Extraordinaire}-
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
Re: Unfair jail sentence
Disagree on that, your intention is good but it would add more trouble than it would cure i'm afraid... You see it would cause a serious loophole for the rich people. Jail time not spent, is jail time not learned IMHO. And that's what it is all about, isn't it? Learning to respect the rules of the shard.ahorton12 wrote:I was just reading through all this stuff and figured id chime in. Ive never been to jail and because of that i have no idea how horrible the situation of doing tasks is. i have heard that it is not possible to script jail tasks *Bravo to staff for that* and that each task takes a certain amount of time. sounds good. ive had an idea on how to reduce jail tasks that act as a gold sink. Not sure if it would work. but for the super rich people who would wine about tasks or say they didnt deserve them but the staff has set on those tasks make it cost 1 ed or 50k per task. if you dont want to pay your fine then do your tasks. That would probly be a good way to sink the extra rich's bank account. especially because those who are afk levling weapons that get caught are usually doing it for financial gain.
Like i said, never been to jail. just thought of a way to sink wealth, and hopefully stop the " I got jailed, Boo Hoo" forum posts.
Re: Unfair jail sentence
Yep, that's exactly how we felt. We did discuss the possibility of fines to reduce jail tasks but decided in the end that it wouldn't help the problem, just exacerbate it.Gaara wrote:Disagree on that, your intention is good but it would add more trouble than it would cure i'm afraid... You see it would cause a serious loophole for the rich people. Jail time not spent, is jail time not learned IMHO. And that's what it is all about, isn't it? Learning to respect the rules of the shard.
Re: Unfair jail sentence
Chances are that the repeat offenders are running a script to help with gold farming, so they'll probably have the money and consider paying a fine as the cost of doing business.
Ossy (in-game) - come and say hi
-
Anna Marie
- Expert Scribe
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 1:26 pm
Re: Unfair jail sentence
I have to agree with all the staff. I think they are doing a great job and if they let things slide then that was very nice of them. They didn't HAVE to do that. Rules are set for a reason. Break them then do the time. It is THEIR shard and THEIR rules. It does not matter how much you donate or help others out cause it all comes down to if you follow the rules. And I also agree with Sethra and think things like this shouldn't be posted on the forums. I don't feel it is everyones business cause you broke the rules. I think it should be between you and the staff. But hey what do I know?
Re: Unfair jail sentence
I dont think this forum ran in the original posters favor. Through the evidence laid out by him and the evidence from the staff a jury of his peers has also said that the crime has fit the punishment. plus from what i know from friends who have gone to jail 500 tasks is 2, 8 hour days of work. not gonna take you a couple months to complete. would be that long for those people who run on shortened timelines. but those people probly wouldnt get caught 3 times in a 3 month period anyway. If i were the original poster and i enjoyed this game enough to be sad about the tasks, i would just hunker down and knock em out.
then i would stop AFKing from that point on because it just isnt worth it.
it recks the economy because normal players would never take that much time to do something, therefore your gaining more than a player who is at the computer could.
also remember guys this is just a game, and the gold gain can build your prestige here but in the whole scheme of things, not enough to make you the envy of your real life friends.
Take this as a lesson for anyone thinking about following in his footsteps. dont! If you dont like playing on excelsior just stop playing, if you do like playing here, follow the rules. keep your nose clean, and if staff gives you directions follow them immediatly.
then i would stop AFKing from that point on because it just isnt worth it.
it recks the economy because normal players would never take that much time to do something, therefore your gaining more than a player who is at the computer could.
also remember guys this is just a game, and the gold gain can build your prestige here but in the whole scheme of things, not enough to make you the envy of your real life friends.
Take this as a lesson for anyone thinking about following in his footsteps. dont! If you dont like playing on excelsior just stop playing, if you do like playing here, follow the rules. keep your nose clean, and if staff gives you directions follow them immediatly.
Eziekial Moss
Re: Unfair jail sentence
Gonna go point by point here..ahorton12 wrote:I dont think this forum ran in the original posters favor.
then i would stop AFKing from that point on because it just isnt worth it.
it recks the economy because normal players would never take that much time to do something, therefore your gaining more than a player who is at the computer could.
also remember guys this is just a game, ... not enough to make you the envy of your real life friends.
Take this as a lesson for anyone thinking about following in his footsteps. dont!
+1 It never does go in their favor
+1 Agreed.
+1 Agreed.
+1 Unless all of your RL friends play here too, then -1
+1 Agreed. That would be a bad idea