Enough is Enough

[dreamgurl]

I think what people do is their business. I would never let my kids on here in a million years, it is clearly not aimed for kids. I wouldn't want my son seeing Indigowulf in her bra on her photo, would instead prefer him to see her face as I bet it is very pretty. I would not want him on at night to learn new uses for honey or participate in naked wrestling. I would not want him on during the day to learn where to purchase drugs or how to take them. I think people on here are looking for alot more in this game than the game. I am here to make friends and now have many so am so thankful the server is up and think that Rayne and Colibri do an awesome job.

[KnitePrince]

As if To emphasize my point... I recieved a phone call this morning from my Daughter... Her, and a friend were out partying last night... she had to basically carry her friend back into their apartment when they returned, she went to sleep.. this morning went in to wake her friend, and she had died during the night from a Drug Overdose.. her name was Whitney, and i knew her, and her brother quite well, from Being their Wrestling coach... My Wife, is on her way back to Maine, my Daughter is being held in police custody pending drug tests etc etc.. which according to my daughter, she will cleanly pass, that remains to be seen, but I did try to raise her with as much fear of drugs as i had, I dont give flying D&#N what you all think is cool, no one, can EVER convince me, that anything to do with illegal drugs is cool.. ESPECIALLY talking about them, as if they are GREAT around someone who might be influenced by that conversation, be that a ten year old or a 20 year old.
No, there is no way to STOP a child, or a 20 year old from hearing it elsewhere... but here shouldnt be one of those worries.
I Would personally pull the trigger on anyone cought dealing drugs, and walk away with a lighter heart for having done so.
sorry, a little emotional atm

[Kile Morgan]

I would suggest on warnings something like, "Player X we do not allow this sort of topic to be discussed in the public chat, please take it to the private message or guild chat, please take a moment to read the codex on our policy.". Saying something like "4.5. 01:32 +Colibri: i think this chat is much more suited for a guild chat 4.5. 01:33 +Colibri: not for a public chat where minors can participate 4.5. 01:33 +Colibri: ok then, private messages. Yeah, drugs aren't cool." might instead be seen as just a suggestion and not something official unless you include the word warning with some people. This is my thoughts on an in general problem that would lead to a warning. While some older players would likely see this as +Colibri's way of giving a warning, I would ask that staff consider new players and word their statements so even they would clearly understand it to be a warning. I'm also assuming the intent was a warning. As a player I think if you aren't sure then asking if this is a warning or if you are breaking the rules should be a correct response so long as it isn't done to get in someone's face.

On +Rayne.
1)I recall a post of mine a while back(Yes I'm bringing it up) where I said some things while not in my normal frame of mind. I read them later and didn't feel what I understood of it was what I was thinking or fair. I did apologize for it, because I felt I needed to and not because I was told to or anything else. I do however have some differences of opinion with things I have read and with how she seems to come off sometimes which I will try to go into. On respect, respect and trust are two things you cannot demand, do not take, and should not give away. They are meant to be earned. That was how I was brought up, and my time as both a LEO and in the US Army I met people who reinforced that idea. I read a post of hers where she came off to me as demanding this of the players for the staff. Since then I have gone back and taken a different view on what she might have meant. Respect the position they hold, which I can easily do. Let me try to say it this way, when working for the County Sheriff Dept. I expected myself and the people I served to respect the law, and I expected them to respect the position I held. I did not expect them to respect me as a person because they did not know me.

2)There are times also where +Rayne comes off as heavy handed. Just consider one of the warnings about fearing her warnings as they are worse then most other people's punishments. Now there have been brought up a fue both in here and the game of people being punished, where they and others felt it was unfair, done without any warning, no explanation given, and nothing done about it till days later and much requesting on players part for it to be straightened out. Or in here there are times when it appears that you take personal what someone says against something you did or how they spoke and replied in kind, attacked back, and it appears threatened them. Or taking a exchange in the forum between two people and punishing them in the game(something that I have never seen done in any free or pay to play game and I've tried a lot). Consider how that looks please. Good programming and being on and at other times doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I'm not saying I agree with some of what the op called for in their "remove her" post but that it needs to be looked at and understood. ]

Now on the other end, how often does she have to defend herself from attacks? I mean real ones. Have things she worked on for how long torn apart or found them altered by others without her knowing? I know with one of them it was because other staff got tired of pulling people out who couldn't find her way out but that should have been pointed out to her. Also, while alot of the attempts of discussion on these topics appears to have been meant as such others look to me more like attacks. If that's the case then I can't see how she wouldn't feel it was. How often has it only been the admins on to handle all the problems and then they go off and work on fixing or adding things requested? I tried fro a month to get my house moved and my second placed next to it. Simple right? Between bad timing, loosing the spot to another player and the general lack of other staff being on it didn't happen till last Sunday. AFTER the auction at around 1am when not just +Colibri showed up but I was messaged by +Rayne to say she'd be right there to help after helping someone else. Would you get mad if you felt attacked? Would reply in kind? Would you be willing to give up your personal time to do all this? Fair is fair. I will stand up every time I feel a player is treated unfairly and why. I will also point out how I don't think it's fair to only see the one side without considering the other. If your problem didn't fall into one of these two groups then likely I'm not thinking about it. There are some people with long standing disagreements on how a problem should be fixed that are NOT what I'm talking about. I'm also not playing cheerleader. I encourage all to behave in a civil manner, not some to bash at the other for whatever reason.


Donations.
I've actually never said to anyone I've donated or how much. I thought that was a private thing but since I have an enchanted runebook I have donated once. I did this because it was a way I could help out. A way that wouldn't be in the way or require someone else to look over my work to see it didn't conflict with any of the custom files. It doesn't make me any different other then someone now knows my real name who didn't before. I do think there are some slippery slopes involved in opening up donations though. Also that not everyone will see it the same way. Some will consider it the same as a free to play with extra items/unlocks to those who pay for them. I don't think it means you get a say in everything that is about to be done any more then being a player does. I do think on that part thought that there are times that players should at the very least be told before some major change(anything changed that has been the same then more then 3-6months) is put in place.


Favoritism
Not sure that's the right word, more like fairness. Now yes staff are like players all people. That being said there are cases where players were treated unfairly, in the past, and because they are talked about people will know and remember. Some are less that then someone just wanting to do what they want to do and don't like being told no. Others however really were and in the last month (not to mention above in my post) some of it was brought out(again). Yes it is a pain but players who have a dispute and feel they are treated unfairly should always be heard and have it looked into. It does not always happen and I think in part this is because it isn't set up to work that way.

1)You have 2 admins and up to what 6(when possible) other staff. All of them handle day to day problems. Why not have it more like a chain of command. 2 Admins who mostly handle the larger problems, are gone to after the lower levels of staff can't handle the problem or have already been appealed to. 1 senior staff member, someone who the admins trusts and has fully explained all the rules to and shown to understand them. Who can handle dealing with the other staff and players evenhandedly and is willing to take the post. Lowest is 6+ staff members who know the rules and who can follow and enforce them, and will not jump straight to the admins before going to senior staff. That frees up the Admins to do more of what they need to do and allows them to be more flexible, it doesn't mean they can't get involved it just means they don't have to be the only ones or the first ones involved. The players also have to understand you go to staff first, not to the senior or admins. Not that that matters much as if it's a real problem you're supposed to use page and not pm.

2)I also think there needs to be at least one forum opp. Someone to handle the problems in here and keep them here. Someone who will not only enforce but follow the rules. Someone with no authority in the game. Someone that players and game staff both have to answer to if they are seen as out of line by the forum opp. and their understanding of the rules.



I'm sorry, it's long. It may even seem a rant. Understand none of this is meant to be personal or an attack. Not to staff or players. It's what I think and some suggestions along with some of what has been mentioned in game and here in the past. This thread isn't the best because I do feel there was warning given before anything else was done and that wasn't mentioned until much later. It also is only in part a reply to what you posted +Colibri, I just tried to use your post divide my wanderings.

[fingers]

There was a case of 24 hour jail just recently, when the player asked me to review the case, but i denied it; if it was a week jail i would most probably take a look even without the player's request. I do my best to keep an eye on the fairness of it all, and from all experience so far, I don't remember a "corrupt" staffer to ever go past GM rank. And at the moment i can say we have a very good team of responsible people (+Rayne, +Osiris, +Neptune, +Veritas).

Well actually, when I pm'ed you, I had already served my 24 hour jailing. I mainly wanted to confirm that I was not crazy and that this was overkill. Justy because I respect you and think you have alot of wisdom.

For thoses who don't know, I got jailed exclusively for this thread that I started:

http://www.uoex.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1735


There are many reasons that make me think that jailing was not diserved in this case. Amongst them:

1. I lost several millions being revealed myself in labyrinth, probably by the same players (who runs around tracking and revealing players?)
2. My post was definitly there to ask a fix for that issue, and that I didnt think that players revealing where honorable (so not to do it until the fix).
3. After many trolls, I decided myself to be the mature one and stop replying (calling the troll).
4. This discussion was made out of the game, I strongly beleive that if someone does wrong on the boards, but right in the game, it's his ability to post that should be reconsidered, not his ability to play.
5. There has been no warning issued about the possibility of going to jail.

Now, I am always very nervous now when I post. What words will I say that can be interpreted as going against the codex? Will they perma ban me? For that, I have been playing on an other shard for several days. I feel that I am marked with a great big X in the back as being a trouble maker, wich I am not.

I am not posting this as a vengeance, but with the hope that some staffers take the time to evaluate how they handle some situations, so maybe other players don't have to pass where I did.

Have a great day

[Harabakc]

1)You have 2 admins and up to what 6(when possible) other staff. All of them handle day to day problems. Why not have it more like a chain of command. 2 Admins who mostly handle the larger problems, are gone to after the lower levels of staff can't handle the problem or have already been appealed to. 1 senior staff member, someone who the admins trusts and has fully explained all the rules to and shown to understand them. Who can handle dealing with the other staff and players evenhandedly and is willing to take the post. Lowest is 6+ staff members who know the rules and who can follow and enforce them, and will not jump straight to the admins before going to senior staff. That frees up the Admins to do more of what they need to do and allows them to be more flexible, it doesn't mean they can't get involved it just means they don't have to be the only ones or the first ones involved. The players also have to understand you go to staff first, not to the senior or admins. Not that that matters much as if it's a real problem you're supposed to use page and not pm.

That would work, if we had staff around. In addition it was attempted for a while when there were active staff, but then there weren't and there wasn't anyone around to do anything. Quite frankly, it won't work.

2)There are times also where +Rayne comes off as heavy handed.

I think I can safely say without revealing any confidences, that is intended.

Being the one that enforces rules is one thing, taking it overboard is another.

[+Rayne]

Fingers:

You do not know that +Colibri was speaking of your situation specifically. And since you have brought up your incident, I will say that you have conveniently forgotten to mention that the other person involved was also reprimanded. He accepted his punishment like an adult, taking responsibility for his role in the situation.

This may be brutally honest, however it needs to be said. We as staff do not spend every moment thinking about you, Fingers. If you feel your are marked with an "x" then this is something you must deal with on your own. We deal with any situation as it arises and you happened to be involved in this one and were acting very inappropriately. You received a just punishment for your role. It is very childish to present a situation as something that it is not, screaming injustice.

When you act out on the forums in the manner that you and another player were, there will be consequences, and might I add that your consequence was very lenient. You would appear much more mature if you would simply accept it and move on as the other player involved has done.

Furthermore, do not try to twist what a staff member has said to you. +Colibri did not say you were unjustly banned. In fact he told you he would not overrule it. In a previous incident, you were also jailed for 3 days, of reasons I of course will not discuss. +Colibri let you out of jail 20 hours before your time was up, as he decided to shorten it a bit. He apologized for moving you to the jail before he reviewed the logs. However the logs were accurate and the punishment was suitable at the time. This by no means brings the conclusion that you were or have been unjustly punished. It was a true violation. Do not attempt to manipulate players and other staff members with your version of the truth. It is entirely unbecoming.

+Rayne

[Craig]

There was a case of 24 hour jail just recently, when the player asked me to review the case, but i denied it; if it was a week jail i would most probably take a look even without the player's request. I do my best to keep an eye on the fairness of it all, and from all experience so far, I don't remember a "corrupt" staffer to ever go past GM rank. And at the moment i can say we have a very good team of responsible people (+Rayne, +Osiris, +Neptune, +Veritas).

Well actually, when I pm'ed you, I had already served my 24 hour jailing. I mainly wanted to confirm that I was not crazy and that this was overkill. Justy because I respect you and think you have alot of wisdom.

For thoses who don't know, I got jailed exclusively for this thread that I started:

http://www.uoex.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1735


There are many reasons that make me think that jailing was not diserved in this case. Amongst them:

1. I lost several millions being revealed myself in labyrinth, probably by the same players (who runs around tracking and revealing players?)
2. My post was definitly there to ask a fix for that issue, and that I didnt think that players revealing where honorable (so not to do it until the fix).
3. After many trolls, I decided myself to be the mature one and stop replying (calling the troll).
4. This discussion was made out of the game, I strongly beleive that if someone does wrong on the boards, but right in the game, it's his ability to post that should be reconsidered, not his ability to play.
5. There has been no warning issued about the possibility of going to jail.

Now, I am always very nervous now when I post. What words will I say that can be interpreted as going against the codex? Will they perma ban me? For that, I have been playing on an other shard for several days. I feel that I am marked with a great big X in the back as being a trouble maker, wich I am not.

I am not posting this as a vengeance, but with the hope that some staffers take the time to evaluate how they handle some situations, so maybe other players don't have to pass where I did.

Have a great day

you only got a 24 hour jail?

[fingers]

Fingers:

You received a just punishment for your role. It is very childish to present a situation as something that it is not, screaming injustice.

We do not agree on that. My jailing being exclusively due to what was written there, it will be easy for anyone to make his own mind about it.

Furthermore, do not try to twist what a staff member has said to you. +Colibri did not say you were unjustly banned.

Please tell me where did I say that?

In a previous incident, you were also jailed for 3 days, of reasons I of course will not discuss. +Colibri let you out of jail 20 hours before your time was up, as he decided to shorten it a bit. He apologized for moving you to the jail before he reviewed the logs. However the logs were accurate and the punishment was suitable at the time.

I would not have brought that incident up as it is long passed and there is no way for the reader to get all the information needed to make his own mind. If you want to talk about it though, I give you permission to publish thoses logs. I can guarantee that most people will find outragous that I got 3 days of jailing for that. Furthermore, I got the punishment without the player that got that pm reproting me. It was a third player telling you: "that player is quitting the game because of fingers being rude in a pm". And I got jailed without you reading the pm, and without warning. For the record, that player was back on 2 days later. Now try to justify that.

You are judge, jury and torturer when you have to deal with disciplin. That is absolutely normal and couldn't be done any other way. What I am trying to do is give you a wake up call on the way things have been dealt. On your side, you call me childish, screaming, twisting, manipulative. If that is not a point of view that will put a big "x" on me everytime you have to deal with me, I don't know what it is.

I will be the adult one and refrain from giving you the qualificatives that comes to my mind regarding your way of dealing with this issue.

Have a nice one.

[Craig]

Fingers:

You received a just punishment for your role. It is very childish to present a situation as something that it is not, screaming injustice.

We do not agree on that. My jailing being exclusively due to what was written there, it will be easy for anyone to make his own mind about it.

Furthermore, do not try to twist what a staff member has said to you. +Colibri did not say you were unjustly banned.

Please tell me where did I say that?

In a previous incident, you were also jailed for 3 days, of reasons I of course will not discuss. +Colibri let you out of jail 20 hours before your time was up, as he decided to shorten it a bit. He apologized for moving you to the jail before he reviewed the logs. However the logs were accurate and the punishment was suitable at the time.

I would not have brought that incident up as it is long passed and there is no way for the reader to get all the information needed to make his own mind. If you want to talk about it though, I give you permission to publish thoses logs. I can guarantee that most people will find outragous that I got 3 days of jailing for that. Furthermore, I got the punishment without the player that got that pm reproting me. It was a third player telling you: "that player is quitting the game because of fingers being rude in a pm". And I got jailed without you reading the pm, and without warning. For the record, that player was back on 2 days later. Now try to justify that.

You are judge, jury and torturer when you have to deal with disciplin. That is absolutely normal and couldn't be done any other way. What I am trying to do is give you a wake up call on the way things have been dealt. On your side, you call me childish, screaming, twisting, manipulative. If that is not a point of view that will put a big "x" on me everytime you have to deal with me, I don't know what it is.

I will be the adult one and refrain from giving you the qualificatives that comes to my mind regarding your way of dealing with this issue.

Have a nice one.

Are you talking about me? Its hard to understand what you are talking about when you are overly vague. I have sat here reading a rereading your post trying to figure it out for about 20 minutes. Could you please clarify?

[fingers]

No Craig,

Not about you at all. No wonder you have to read it again and again, that was an other incident

[Craig]

I see, it just all seems so similar, and in the other post you sited the topic that we were under the radar for.

[+Colibri]

fingers, my point is that I cannot go look over everything every staffer does. If that was required, there's no point in having staff.
But I see I've almost spent almost the same amount of time on this issue as if i went to investigate it.

Let's go on with life.

[KnitePrince]

Just as a follow up, 4 "young Adults" died that night.. i dont know what it was they took, but it was provided by one of those that did not wake up..

[Skyla]

Just as a follow up, 4 "young Adults" died that night.. i dont know what it was they took, but it was provided by one of those that did not wake up..

Oh no, I'm sorry to hear that

[Llexa]

i really hate hearing about young people dying. sorry to hear about that. thats the instibility of drugs, you can do something once or 100 times and any one of those times could be your last breath. there was an incident that was a 48 hours special one night about a good girl, never did any drugs or anything. very responsible and great in school. she had graduated and went out with her friends to a graduation rave-ish thing actually sponsored by the school. but just like our corrupt world someone brought E and offered it to the girl and her friend. the friend persuaded her that they should use it and enjoy the night, so they took specifically half a tab each and long/short the girl died that night. you never know when your body will just say, forget this. i never have and never will dance with that devil.

and for any kids or teens reading this, dont ever listen to anyone that promotes drug use. first of all they usually DO the drugs and dont have all their nuts and bolts in order anyway, OR they just deal and are smart enough not to use themselves but make a living off of selling it. you are much too smart and much too important in this world to go that route. dont let anyone take that away from you by convincing you to do drugs. you might die, you might become an addict, you might end up an occasional user but the truth is you never know what could happen and its not worth finding out. i've lived my whole life never ever doing drugs but babysitting stupid friends and ive seen the hard core reality. trust me its just not worth it.

love,
Llexa