The True Purpose of Gold Sinks?

[louis077]

So this is not intended to be a rant. I just got a little curious into the economics of the shard and how everything worked. This is only my interpretation of it. I've only been playing a little over 2 months now and love it so far. The previous "Economic Downturn" thread was closed off, otherwise I would have posted it in there.

So it seems like gold sinks are in place to suck up all the extreme wealth of the shard and to keep inflation down. This seems like a great idea but you have to ask yourself "How did all that gold get there in the first place?" Players spending hours and hours slaying balrons, Perhaps.... Or could it be by players donating and creating an influx of ED's / Gold on the shard? Every time someone donates they are essential inserting gold into the server that wasn't there in the first place. This is the same problem that nations who overprint money have. Why is this a bad thing? Because it directly impacts inflation. While I have no idea what the "actual" server costs are month to month. I have to wonder if we are extremely over what it takes to actually run this thing. If this were more transparent (implying that we were underfunded). I would certainly feel more obligated to donate.

I'm not knocking people who donate to get there gear. As +Nyx has said before the vast majority of people actually do earn their gear the hard way. I do believe she is being truthful.

I was trying to buy some ED's the other day using gold. I did a world chat advertisement and immediately got a couple interested parties. However, to my surprise some people were actually asking cash as opposed to in game currency! I finally found a friend who was willing to trade in game gold for it so it ended up being fine. But then I got to thinking about it and it makes perfect since and would cut down on inflation if more people did this.

The irony of this whole story is I have donated two times already when I first started playing because I truly enjoyed the shard and wanted to pay for server costs. After seeing how everything operates it makes me a little uneasy donating ever again. If for any reason I don't want to contribute for more inflation.

I'm curious to some of the more "veteran" players take on this and if this is just old news or not.

[+Nyx]

The number of ED going into the economy on a monthly basis is far less than you think. The inflation issues come from the fact that so many players are able to game most of the day and evening, and have become very efficient at it. Gold is very easy to get, and on a shard much smaller than the average OSI shard, there are far fewer aspects to the economy. One could explain the inflation issue in a very simplistic nutshell by saying that our server has relayers which essentially cause anyone wearing them to vastly overpower most of the monsters in the game. It allows for fast farming of massive amounts of gold. Reducing gold drops globally isn't really an answer, nor is removing relayers. Taking steps backward is never a good idea for a game, let alone a free shard. Thus, we combat it in other ways that aren't similar to rebooting the shard back to defaults.

[Cornbread]

You do make valid points, and I'm sure to some degree they are true. However, I can assure you that large sums of gold can be easily made farming. For example, I made somewhere around 150mil in one month farming. I also work 12+ hours a minimum of 5 days a week. So I am limited in my time. As +Nyx stated relayers make you super powered on this shard. I can generally kill a balron in 4 hits, but no more than 6. So since I swing at maximum speed. I kill a balron in 6-8.5 seconds. I then recall to the next spot nearly instantaneously. Using my script and my insane gear I can fairly easily reach 1 mil gold per hour, that's not counting anything that is looted in that time. While manually farming I can easily farm 600k gold in an hour. That's not counting ointments, essences and all the other loot that I receive and of course sell since I have no use for any of that stuff. Now the crazy thing about that is I'm not the only one who can and/or does this.

There's a few people with hundreds of millions in gold and thousands in ED just lying around that have not donated or donated only a little to get there. The auctions and some of the other things, including the entire ED room, are there for people like myself to be enticed to buy something and "rid" the shard of that gold/ED. The auctions are wonderful for this type of spending since we have basically nothing to spend that gold or ED on. I mean just one person with massive funds could utterly destroy the market on any item out there by offering stupid prices on it just because they want it and making it so the newer people have no possibility of buying said item. The auctions, specifically, encourage us to hoard our gold rather than buying other junk so that we can beat the other rich guy on some really cool/rare item.

So in conclusion donating to the shard is good. You could be paying $15 or whatever a month to play WoW or whatever other game and be getting nothing but a place to play in return. Here you get a little treat and you know you're supporting the shard you play on. In fact if you donated just $15 every other month it'd be like getting a 50% discount on a place to play a fun game with a staff who actually cares about this place and every single player. There's no millionaire staff running this shard, but EA or (insert game company here) has at least a few millionaires at the top and to them you are just a number. Here regardless of your donations or lack there of you're treated equally. I can tell you where I'd rather my money going.

[Unbeliever]

I said this once before in a separate thread and it's still true: EDs don't change the amount of gold on the server. Gold cannot be generated from nothing with real life money here. The only way to bring new gold into the economy is by playing the game - killing monsters, doing quests, turning in BODs, and so on. EDs create a transfer of existing wealth between players often, which doesn't hurt anything. You could argue that EDs allow players to power up their characters, greatly increasing their gold/hour earning potential which has been stated as the real cause of inflation but it's the same on any UO server. There are always players with greater than average amounts of playing time and/or finely tuned BOD collecting and filling macros and such, with or without EDs. They always have 50-100x more gold than the average player and inflate prices on things like rares and housing to an insane degree. But what you don't ever see is as robust and exciting a means of combating inflation as we have here on Excelsior. Honestly, I can't recall another server where I saw anything but talk about fighting inflation. Here staff members put a ton of effort into actually doing it and doing it right.

[+Nyx]

Another good thing to remember is that while ED is "generated" on a donation, it's also sunk right back to the server via purchases in the ED room, services, recoveries and the like. Unbeliever is right, it isn't a direct addition to the economy and it all comes from the same finite pool. Obviously Coli could "print" as many ED as he ever wanted, but he doesn't and there's no need to. The existing pool is plenty.

[louis077]

........ You could argue that EDs allow players to power up their characters, greatly increasing their gold/hour earning potential which has been stated as the real cause of inflation but it's the same on any UO server. ......

This is one of the points I was trying to make. I would just move to make things more transparent on the need for server donations if we weren't meeting the actual costs. Otherwise, players should be encourage to sell their ED's for cash to combat inflation rates.

[Johnny Warren]

Honestly, I can't recall another server where I saw anything but talk about fighting inflation. Here staff members put a ton of effort into actually doing it and doing it right.

For real.

Normally when I log in for my annual read of the forum I just look for an opportunity to do some minor trolling, but I think I have a genuine contribution this time.

I've played on several free servers and inevitably when a server becomes successful and has a large and stable player base gold starts to accumulate rapidly and there's a huge paranoid freakout over inflation that usually ends with some savagings on the forum. I agree totally with Unbeliever. At least on Excelsior the staff are actually doing things, as opposed to talking about things, to reduce the effect inflation has. I also agree with +Nyx about not taking backwards steps. Unfortunately here is where my $0.02 ends as I don't have a solution, or even really a suggestion.

This will be an issue on almost any server for any game (MMO) you play. The older (or sometimes grindier) players just have more stuff... you just need to become a grinder yourself and pump more hours into it if you want to have that wealth.

OK maybe I do have a suggestion... Perhaps as an e-Penis measurer you could have a voluntary gold dump in game where you can disappear your gold. The server adds up how much you've put in and the top 3 peeps that throw away the most gold are advertised on the website or town crier in game or some such... Imagine the bragging rights if you had top-notch gear, could still compete in grand auctions and were the legend (read: fool) that had disappeared 1,000,000,000gp!!

[Asmodean]

This is one of the points I was trying to make. I would just move to make things more transparent on the need for server donations if we weren't meeting the actual costs. Otherwise, players should be encourage to sell their ED's for cash to combat inflation rates.

So basically, you don't want people to donate to the shard, but donate to the people who earn the gold on the shard instead?
How does this make any sense at all?

It would be much simpler to remove ED all together, but that's not a solution either.

The server needs donations to keep running. Without them, you wouldn't have a place to log into. ED is a reward for donating. A nice 'thank you', that doesn't NEED to exist at all. If you don't want to donate, don't donate. But when the shard needs something that costs $500-$1000, where is the money going to come from to buy it? Are you going to give Colibri a call with your credit card number from all the cash you made selling ED that doesn't exist anymore?

[lestatzero]

It would be much simpler to remove ED all together, but that's not a solution either.

The server needs donations to keep running. Without them, you wouldn't have a place to log into. ED is a reward for donating. A nice 'thank you', that doesn't NEED to exist at all. If you don't want to donate, don't donate. But when the shard needs something that costs $500-$1000, where is the money going to come from to buy it? Are you going to give Colibri a call with your credit card number from all the cash you made selling ED that doesn't exist anymore?

If you Sold ED your selling them to someone else who now has them to spend ... They are not just gone if they are sold ... From what I gather only a small percentage of ED that are available are just Free Printed ed so to speek ... The rest had to come from Donations... That is when they are made when someone donates money to the shard...

On the ED front the only Thing that could change I think is Setting up a Donation limit both on the individual and on the Shard as a whole. Thus limiting the total number of ed flowing into the econonmy at any given point in time. This would make the Current Shard available stock go up in value. Because you still need ed to buy stuff in the ED room. Because where you have ED you will have people selling them to make gold rather than buy things with ed. Some people prefer the gold.

The largest problem is the fact that most gold that is made is passed around between players and not spent at npc's or on fees and such. Player A has a item for sale and player b pays 2 Million for it. Thus not sinking the gold at all ... Most gold circulates in the market in this way.

My 2 GP

Lestat

[+Nyx]

From what I gather only a small percentage of ED that are available are just Free Printed ed so to speek ... The rest had to come from Donations... That is when they are made when someone donates money to the shard...

This is inaccurate. In my previous post, I explained that ALL ED in the game are generated from the same finite pool. When one donates, their ED are withdrawn from the shardwide ED "repository" that Colibri keeps, and when ED are spent in the ED room or on staff services they go back into it. There are enough ED that it would not seem finite to anyone who doesn't know better, but Colibri does not create new ED for every donation, or for anything else. Every ED on the shard comes from the same pool. Nobody, including Colibri, can just type "[add excelsiordollar" to create brand new ones. If he wanted to change that, of course he could, but as I said before there's just no reason he would. The existing pool is more than enough to carry all the donations, events, and bonuses that ED are generated for.

[Dramoor]

I'm curious to some of the more "veteran" players take on this and if this is just old news or not.

Well you are 100 percent accurate when you could have added this to the Economic Downturn post.

The reason for the Need of Gold Sinks / etc is because there is too much gold out there. Not enough things for later vets who still care to play to spend gold on/or they donated 3000 Euro for an auction and have sold their ed for an extremely low price. But that still is never the problem. The same problem that existed will always exist. This is a free to play shard. Players have perks for donating yes, but you don't have to donate at all to get ahead. The problems are mainly that Vets who breed, sell pets cheap (to compete with each other), All items that new players could sell after their instant training are controlled and set at pricing so it is not acceptable for a new player to spend his time to make gold off it. (You may enjoy those pricing as a new player getting so much for so little, but then don't be upset you can't sell anything you have to offer later). 2 gauntlets (Not a smart idea) to shoot out more worthless arties to make them more worthless.


The biggest problem though is Guilds. All guilds want to be "Big and Successful" and have players think they are "Awesome". I don't care if you disagree with that statement, but it is truth. Look at most big builds, 90 percent of them do not have any guidelines or requirements. and 90 percent of that 10 percent that is left has a "18 or older" or "more than 30 day account" requirements. So why is this a problem you ask? Here is your answer, When 30 new players all join 3 of the big guilds within their first week, They are given their free goods for being in the guild. Most get Free pets, Batwings, Jackals Collar, Gloves of Pug, ok weapon and free bracelets of binding to hit up every single champ with them.

Hey being in a good guild, and having perks and hunts are fun. But when a new player or really any player, is instantly put into "vet" status just for being in a guild, You will have more players with no care for gold or need to buy anything. (no care means, when they sell their items later, they don't care for pricing and lower it in a high percentage because why care it was free)


Another thing is always calling out Champion spawns in WC. Yes, it is fun, nice to do, gets you lots of friends, helps you do a champ you aren't actually able to do. But really, When you have 20 people show up at a champ spawn, you are just ruining the PS value/ market for them in general (double dmg to that market).

Bottom line is this....Most people with a vendor, tend to be the ones who buy eds, to spend eds. All this free market and "no more window shopping cuz of vendors.uoex.net" has hurt everyone. (I mean, lets charge new players 10 to 30k a week to have a vendor on there if they aren't in our "staff made" rental areas which some spots are cheaper I might add). Free stuff means lower prices, you want prices to go up, help out and do your part, stop giving things away for free. Stop using "veendors.uoex.net" to find other vendors selling to reduce ur pricing, Stop using that site to find what u want instead of window shopping (and maybe this will help buy other items off players to help them get ed to spend and u a nice item or deco).

[Ayik]

There isnt a single dungeon where you can hunt.. without seeing spawn being constantly down, and 4 to 5 diffrent players recalling in and out.

Disable dungeon recalling, and AFK druid spell macro spam at champs, both these things have huge income.
Have players needing too actively play too gain alot more, and watch how alot less gold sinks are needed..... and Netflix lose customers lol

[+Nyx]

This has been suggested hundreds of times, and it's not likely to ever be implemented - for the same reasons I mentioned above regarding removing relayers. It's a backwards step.

[Ayik]

1 step back, might show a way to make 2 steps forward
If its been suggested a hundred of times, they must be onto something i suppose.

When i started out, the first thing i noticed was how lenient and rewarding automated gameplay is on this shard. Wich is too a bad thing in my opinion, the shard has soo much else too offer and with hard work put into it.

Ofcourse there are many other casual players like me, for me personally this inflation caused by activities as discribes above ruin the fun.

For example.. whats the fun of doing a champion when there are 4 afk Druidbook spammers, clearing the spawns even before you can touch them. Or crawling deep inside a dungeon, hoping too find something nice... and the only thing you find is dead spawn and semi afk players recalling in and out. Realy takes out the immersion wich the shard could offer.

[+Nyx]

Giving everyone free titan's hammers has been suggested hundreds of times too. Doesn't make it a good idea. Just because many people suggest the same thing does not in any way lend merit or value to the idea itself. Lots of people think alike or want the same things, but that doesn't mean they're intelligent, informed, or have the proper motives in mind.

Besides, any time you try to "nerf" something (IE: remove recalling in dungeons), whoever wants to will simply figure a way around it. You're only seeing half a dozen players recall farming nowadays, because the other 1 dozen who usually do it have since made rails scripts for the fel dungeons. They'd just start using those in the tram dungeons as well, and nothing would have changed at all except a huge step backward for the shard, massive outcry and drama from the players and so on.

Regarding "afk druid book" people at champs, if you suspect someone is AFK, send a page.