New Player Concerns

[Elcrin]

Hello all,

First I would like to say that in my almost 15 years playing I've never experienced anything like Excelsior. Everything that was annoying with the pay shards have been revamped and remade. It is the best UO experience I've had. The GM's are extremely helpful and responsive on all requests tickets I have created. I am extremely impressed with all the game mechanic changes and additions and hope to be a member of Excelsior for many years to come.

That being said there are some concerns that myself and many of my newer player acquaintances have regarding some of the veterans. By no means are these concerns aimed at all veterans, I have met some very helpful people on Excelsior. Unfortunately, the concerns are for the veterans that seem most active in world chat. The way we know these are long time veterans displaying this behavior, and not another new players unfamiliar with Excelsior rules, is that they are covered head to toe in relayers and gem of completion armors. I believe these peoples actions and comments will drive newer players from Excelsior. In fact, if a GM had not instructed me how to disable world chat I do not believe I would still be with Excelsior.

Here are a few examples of this detrimental behavior:

A new player asking some pointers about weapon leveling from someone who has experience was told that the only way a new player can have a good leveled weapon is to save up millions of gold to pay a veteran to level it for them. The specific questions about stats were ignored and several veterans jumped on this band wagon and re-affirmed this was the only way for a new player to have a decent weapon.

A new player who is mainly a crafter went through all the effort to get a mist vale cloak with the intent on selling this item to provide gold so they could buy crafting power scrolls and materials to further their crafting career. They were offered a fraction of the value of this item by a long time veteran. When the player attempted to notify the other new players who this person was so that they knew to watch out for them; they were attacked in world chat by many veterans and was threated with being reported for "black listing" the person trying to take advantage of them.

Many new players have been told by a prominent veteran mule breeder that the only way to be successful on Excelsior is to train taming and buy his mules.

A new player was in a challenging area testing his new skills and a veteran player kited a group of tough mobs over to their location and hid causing them all to attack the new player in order to drive the new player from the area and capitalize on the loot drops.

A new player was in a lich lord hunting area where several veterans were already present. When the new player asked if turns would be taken as stated in Excelsior rules, the veterans responded "nope this is first come first serve" and proceeded to attack everything that spawned. This was such an easy area for the veterans that they were able to kill the mobs in one hit.

These are just a few of the examples that we have experienced and by no means are these just a few isolated incidents. We feel it is a daily chore to put up with this greedy arrogant behavior from the shards billionaires. We believe that unless some changes are made, the population of this shard may not continue to grow and prosper as the young ones are driven off by these behaviors. Although there is no PK'ing on Excelsior many of us feel that some of the veterans have found a new way to PK, by exploiting us.

Here are a couple of suggestions on how to counter act these issues. For the first 21 days after a new player joins the shard they are put into a "new player chat" instead of the world chat where the moderators are trusted veterans. Only these few veterans would have access to the new player chat along with the new players. These veterans would be volunteers willing to spend their time to shepherd the young ones into proper game play and what to watch out for from the veterans trying to take advantage of the young. These shepherds would have to be carefully chosen and should not have anything to do with the number of items they have, the number of houses they own, nor the amount they have donated. They should be chosen on their willingness to help others and the interest of seeing the shard thrive. World chat would not be available for new players until after the first 21 days.

Thank you for the opportunity to voice my opinions. Despite the misconduct of some of the long term players I hope to be a member of the Excelsior community for many years to come.

Elcrin

[Asmodean]

Hi, I'd like to comment on some things.

A new player asking some pointers about weapon leveling from someone who has experience was told that the only way a new player can have a good leveled weapon is to save up millions of gold to pay a veteran to level it for them. The specific questions about stats were ignored and several veterans jumped on this band wagon and re-affirmed this was the only way for a new player to have a decent weapon.

There are steps involved in weapons, much like any sort of progression. Some things are better than other's etc. Crafted item's aren't as good as looted because they only receive 3 points per level instead of 5. In my opinion they make great starter weapons, as something to be replaced as you find/purchase better. Being told they need a veteran to level it for them is ridiculous.

A new player who is mainly a crafter went through all the effort to get a mist vale cloak with the intent on selling this item to provide gold so they could buy crafting power scrolls and materials to further their crafting career. They were offered a fraction of the value of this item by a long time veteran. When the player attempted to notify the other new players who this person was so that they knew to watch out for them; they were attacked in world chat by many veterans and was threated with being reported for "black listing" the person trying to take advantage of them.

They take blacklisting and drama causing very serious here. If you don't like someone's price then don't buy the item from, or sell the item to them. Someone else may like that price, and find it acceptable.

Many new players have been told by a prominent veteran mule breeder that the only way to be successful on Excelsior is to train taming and buy his mules.

If you want maxed mules, it is a lot easier to just buy them. If you want to breed them yourself, expect a 6+ month time investment, plus millions of gold.

A new player was in a challenging area testing his new skills and a veteran player kited a group of tough mobs over to their location and hid causing them all to attack the new player in order to drive the new player from the area and capitalize on the loot drops.

This 'veteran' should be reported. This is against the shard rules as seen here: http://uoex.net/codex

5. PvP:
a. No Player Killing. PvP/Dueling is allowed only in the PvP dungeon or in a private house owned by one of the participants, but only if all of the participants are explicitly informed of the attacker's intentions.
b. PvP is by some players seen as offensive, and frightening - do your fighting in a private place - or you can be warned/killed/jailed.
c. No indirect player killing, such as intentionally causing a monster to go near a player that was not informed of your actions.
d. We take all non-agreed player-harmful actions very seriously, the penalties for which can be jail or ban.

A new player was in a lich lord hunting area where several veterans were already present. When the new player asked if turns would be taken as stated in Excelsior rules, the veterans responded "nope this is first come first serve" and proceeded to attack everything that spawned. This was such an easy area for the veterans that they were able to kill the mobs in one hit.

Get a GM involved in cases like this. the vets are in the wrong.

[Birko]

Elcrin,
Great post.

[Pariah]

Asmo hit most of everything I wanted to say. If you are a newer player, the difficulty in obtaining a looted wep with the right properties, etc., will be difficult. However, the market for these has gone soft, meaning you could prob get a vet player to sell you one at a fairly decent price. That is not however, the ONLY way. I've seen many posts here on the forums, and even replied to a few myself, about what stats to put on a weapon. Sometimes, I have to be honest and say that's not a good idea. Just because someone doesn't agree with your method, doesn't mean they are tying to belittle you. Second, a point in the main about world chat. World chat is exactly that. Anyone in the world can respond. I think if you want to ask a vet a question, you'd be better served hitting the forums. You're going to get ever manner of snarky comment, oddball weighing in, and facetious response you could possibly imagine (and those are just from me) in world chat. The forums are a bit more measured, and you can actually weigh the comments versus how long someone has been around. The mule thing is very true, Pet breeding is costly, lengthy, and a right pain in the bottom. Why do you think so few people bother with it? Someone did write a pretty informative forum post about it recently though, so maybe check that out? There were a few other things you mentioned which were just flat out against the rules, those should be reported. I will say in my nearly 2 years here, I've come across the kill stealing thing you mentioned exactly 1 time and I hunt everywhere pretty regularly. Much of this seems to be skewed toward your perception of these interactions and I would encourage you to take a step back and try to look at the other side. If someone is telling you that you're better off buying a looted weapon, why is that? Same for mules. I've seen near maxed mules going for very cheap. Much easier to obtain for a newer player than breeding. Oh, one other thing, people offer me garbage for items I have for sale all the time. That doesn't mean I have to take them. It's your job to be an informed seller. In fact, I know of the scenario you're discussing and I won't mention that player's name, but they were essentially "shopping" around their Mist Cloak, not selling (I'd be surprised if they even knew what it was worth). That's going to rankle some feathers on the other end as when given a fair offer, the person was trying to create a bidding war. Personally, I will never buy anything from said person as i don't really appreciate the tactic. It will come around to bite you in the end to do things like that and so yes, when you alienate other players with such tactics, they are going to jump right back on you given the chance. Such is the way of the world. Lastly, if you're a newer player and have a question, I've offered many times in posts for newer players to pm me. I will usually be able to answer your question. If not, I can get the answer for you in most cases. How many times have I been pmd? Zero, but I will keep extending the offer. Good luck to you and welcome.

[+Nyx]

Asmo made excellent points, as did Pariah. I only have a little to add to their input and mine is of course from a staffer's perspective rather than another player.

First, kill stealing and failing to share spawn are both in violation of our codex and should be reported. Particularly if they -say- such things to you, since we can check the logs and punish based on that.

Secondly, just because someone has relayers and gold does not mean they are a true veteran player here. Some folks get relayers given, or they purchase them for RL money, or they donate to the shard to get the ED faster. In my experience and from my ability to see everything going on - most of our actual veteran players (and by this I mean players who have been here 2+ years, with full relayers they earned over time) are quite nice and they tend to mind their own business. The folks you see mouthing off like know-it-alls in world chat and refusing to share spawn generally are nothing near to an actual veteran player. There are a few exceptions, of course, but you'll figure those out pretty easily and you can just avoid them.

It's always best to take things said in world chat with a grain of salt. It is, after all world chat. Like Pariah said, it's going to attract the dregs just as much as anyone else, because those are the types who need constant validation and attention. Those of you who've ever played WoW remember good ol' Barrens chat, and a lot of the time world/zone chat on any game is the same way. In the future I'd suggest sending a PM to someone who has offered, or if you see a relayered person who isn't talking much in wc, maybe send them a PM and see how it goes. You might be surprised how much easier it is to get good info that way, and networking with the knowledgeable folks is usually a really good idea for anyone who plans to stay here.

I can tell you that it drives the staff absolutely insane when we see some arrogant folks spreading constant misinformation in world chat - it's become such a problem that it's noticeably turning newbs 'off' to Excelsior and so I personally plan to take a firmer stance on it from here on out. Folks actively speaking as if they know for a fact, and yet are provably incorrect will be enjoying lots of chat bans until they learn to be quiet when they don't know something Hopefully over time it will help.

Anyway, welcome to the shard and I hope a few wannabes' poor behavior doesn't drive you off, you seem like a nice person

[Misadventure]

I wanted to take a moment to graciously thank Elcrin for being the voice for us young ones, especially when some of us, like myself, felt like we had none. Being one of the new players in his examples of detrimental behavior, I'm happy and relieved to see positive feedback from both the veterans and staff. I am thrilled to have found Excelsior and hope to call this shard home. Both my husband and I are avid UO players and we've been through so many other MMORPG's. All have paled in comparison to UO's intricacies of gameplay and crafting. Coming to Excelsior feels like coming back home after being away for far too long. This shard brings that sense of community and camaraderie back to the game when I thought it had been lost for good.

Many of the vets I've come across are indeed very helpful and friendly. For that, I thank each and every one of them. Even though we've played UO for many years, there is still much to learn and many things that are unique to Excelsior alone. I would also like to extend my thank you the +staff for donating their valuable time into keeping this game alive, and making it so much better. Your efforts in the game mechanics, in individual player assistance, and in monitoring the unavoidable dishonorable behavior in some, do not go unappreciated.

As for the behavior of these "wannabes", thank you +Nyx , I will be sure to report future issues without feeling like a tattle-tale in hopes that it will improve everyone's gaming experience, for both the new and seasoned Excelsior players alike.

[Elcrin]

I'd like to thank you +Nyx and Asmodean for reading completely through the original post and providing some great information.

I do however have a few things I feel require a response. As I stated in my original post these are examples of behaviors that a group of us, all fairly new to Excelsior, have been experiencing. It was not a solicitation for information. We have all read the wiki and used the resources at our disposal.

The mule thing is very true, Pet breeding is costly, lengthy, and a right pain in the bottom. Why do you think so few people bother with it?

I have to disagree with this statement. In my original post I said that new players have been told that the only way for them to be successful on this shard is to buy mules from a specific veteran. That is simply not true and taking advantage of those that have not had the opportunity to read the wiki or use the other resources at their disposal.

I will say in my nearly 2 years here, I've come across the kill stealing thing you mentioned exactly 1 time and I hunt everywhere pretty regularly

It is a bit presumptuous for one to think that just because they have not experienced something that it does not exist nor is not a problem for others.

Much of this seems to be skewed toward your perception of these interactions and I would encourage you to take a step back and try to look at the other side.

As I have previously stated, these are the opinions of a group of newer players. I would also encourage you to take a step back and try to see how your attitudes and actions are affecting the new players.

In fact, I know of the scenario you're discussing and I won't mention that player's name, but they were essentially "shopping" around their Mist Cloak, not selling (I'd be surprised if they even knew what it was worth). That's going to rankle some feathers on the other end as when given a fair offer, the person was trying to create a bidding war.

Unfortunately I do not believe you know of the situation in which I was referring in my original post. The person was not creating a bidding war and it is also a bit presumptuous of you to assume the seller did not know the value of his item. This is not the place for you to air your personal feelings toward someone if it is indeed the same person. This person, who was a very good player, said they were leaving the shard and has not logged back in since.

There have been at least 3 players I know of that have left for other shards due to the concerns I revealed in my original post.

Again, thank you for the opportunity to voice my concerns and the concerns of my group.
Elcrin

[Pariah]

Based on the entirety of your previous post, I feel anything but presumptuous. In fact, if anything, I feel substantiated. You took every piece of advice or insight I shared with you and skewed it to the negative. Perhaps this is why you're having such a challenge getting along here. I don't need to take a step back and look at things from your side. I WAS new here. I went through the slog of all of those early stages WITHOUT handouts that are commonplace now, WITHOUT Mist armaments, and WITHOUT a woe is me I'm new and people aren't all friendly forum post. However, YOUR continued presuppositions about me are without merit as you have never been in my shoes. I hope you enjoy the rest of your time here and focus on what you can control to make the shard a better experience for everyone.

[Elcrin]

Thank you again Pariah for another excellent example of the poor attitudes that are driving new players away from this shard.

Not once did I say woe is me I'm new. Not once did I ask for any type of handout. Not once did I say I was having trouble getting along with the people of this shard. If you would have paid attention you would have seen the post was a concern about behaviors driving others away.

The fact that you have turned these posts into something personal is unfortunate as you have missed the point all together. Excelsior has no problem getting new players. Many join each day. The problem I see is keeping those new players. The population always stays about the same even though new accounts are created each day. Through my discussions with many new players, I listed some of the things that are making them not feel welcome here. I also listed one possible solution to help keep the new players vested in Excelsior.

Considering you condescending tone with these posts as well as many others you have posted throughout the forums its no wonder that no new player has ever pm'd you for any kind of assistance.

[+Nyx]

Elcrin, Pariah's original post was not necessarily downplaying your concerns. He addressed them with some possible reasons as to why you've noticed the things you have noticed. He mentioned that kill stealing is against the rules - and then gave you his own experience (that it hasn't happened often to him) as an example that the majority of players here don't behave that way. You took this to mean he was belittling your post, when really you are belittling his.

I do not know the specific Mistvale Cloak scenario you hinted at, nor the one Pariah mentioned. I do however know that I warned a relatively new, returning 'vet' player who was going to world chat a few times a day to gripe about being low-ball offered on their Mistvale item. This is not appropriate, and just as we correct the poor behavior of vets when they violate the rules, so we do correct the behavior of newer players when they do. This player, however, then went to guild/pm/etc to tell a woe-is-me tale about how he was just sticking up for the little guys out there and the Evil Mean Staff don't give a crap about newbies and bullied him to protect their Beloved Veterans. This is absolute malarkey, but it does make my next point for me - just because some other new players may have sob stories to tell, does not make them true. Pariah's advice to essentially take a look at how you view things could also be extended to 'take things with a grain of salt unless you witnessed them yourself', because I can assure you, the majority of the dramuh that happens on this shard is just poorly-crafted lies to incite sympathy.

Which brings me to my next topic. Pariah's advice to try and see the positive of situations and change how you see certain interactions is good advice. Not just for Excelsior, but for life. Everything in life is what you make of it, and if you choose to view someone's attempt to be helpful as them being 'presumptuous' to the point you end up essentially flaming that person on the forums for their reply - well, then that is a decent example of how you have control over your own perceptions and are choosing to perceive something positive as something negative. Excelsior is home to players from a wide variety of cultures and backgrounds. A lot of times, some players come off rude to players from America, but it is primarily a cultural difference - these are things you should take into account before making the assumption that someone is being nasty to you.

Basically, it takes two to tango. It isn't just the person interacting with you who makes a situation what it is, it is also you yourself who does so. New players can sit around feeling bad for themselves, or they can take control of their game experience and not let things get to them. The same goes for vet players. In my years staffing here, I have found that players who let everything get them upset, or who view everything as negative don't really last. It's just not the right environment for people who desire to be victims.

Elcrin, I hope you will take all of this advice in the friendly spirit in which it was meant and that you will endeavor to have a more positive experience on Excelsior. Again, if anyone is violating rules - page us and we will set them straight.

This thread will now be locked.

+N