Global Chat

[Pariah]

Since I know mostly veteran or dedicated players use the forums, I will take this opportunity to apologize for this morning's antics in global chat for any I offended. Don't get me wrong, I stand by my point. When someone asks a question in global that is directly answered verbatim in the codex, but claims they read "the rules," I have a problem with that. As all of you know who have played here for a while, if I had a nickel for every time a wrong answer was given in global, I could retire. I don't think this is a wise practice and answering their question only leads them to ask more of them (as seen 5 seconds later). Someone asked me what the big deal is and as I told that person, I don't want to play with other players that don't read and abide by the rules and neither should you. That same person who PM'd me said "man a wrong answer is better then (sic) no answer..." I disagree with this 1000%. We can be welcoming and still refer someone to the codex. EVERY player must agree and adhere to it to play here. Perhaps I went about it the wrong way and for that I apologize. Didn't want to keep the topic going in global as it was already becoming tiresome, but this is my long winded rationale.

EDIT: I also apologized directly to the new player so no more stating how Pariah is unwelcoming to new players...I try and utilize the forums and guidance via PM for that rather than global...

[Yoda]

point taken and understood but here is another way of looking at it.

A shard such as this functions beyond the economy off of what Id like to refer to as social currency.

you could define that as goodwill, helpfulness, interesting and fun chat topics, humor.

At the end of the day we are trying to build and maintain a community. Now where it may seem silly to answer the questions in worldchat. often it takes second, and yes they may ask another question shortly after.

Now on the one hand it may seem like a good thing to say "read the codex" or "its in the wiki" to a new player who is not versed in our ways and culture, there is a very good chance that could be taken as rude and dismissive. If its early in their life here on the shard that could be what makes the difference to making them a short term player who quits, or a long term player who stays.

Granted you are correct I often see incorrect information dispensed in the world chat. I am of 2 minds with this. If I feel strongly about the level of incorrect of the information I will try and politely respond. If I feel like it is a correction they could take offense to I handle it in private message. The thing is although incorrect the information may have been the impression a newer player would get from something like that is that there is a community that is more than willing to help. It advances the social currency.

The real problem honestly is that incorrect information. I know the players who dispense it mean well, but perhaps if they aren't clear on a subject it is best they don't chime in every time.

Overall though it does nothing good to try and discourage behaviors that are above all social, if our aim is to maintain and build upon a community.

[Pariah]

Agreed. I will say I delineate between asking a gameplay or mechanics question versus a "rules" based question. "What is the best way to..." is far different from "Am I allowed to..." I have no problem with gameplay questions in global and I will chime in on those from time to time. I don't actually participate in WC very often anyway. However, I still do not believe questions on rules that are specified in the codex should be answered in global. That person clearly needs a refresher on the codex and should be directed to such. There was still ambiguity in the answer until I pasted word for word the answer from the codex.

"When killing spawn, leveling weapons, taming animals: you need to be at the keyboard at all time."

There's no room for error there. It's black and white and the first time penalty includes jail tasks. How many players are going to stick around after being jailed early in their life here? Not many. Also, it gets them used to searching the codex for the answer. So many players chimed in on global with more confusion and answers unrelated to the topic. Teach a man to fish and all that. Again, I should've went about it a better way. I own that. I understand the importance of being welcoming. I also know that this shard is tough to get to the higher tiers. It's very grindy and it takes a lot of work. The players that end up staying here are those that are willing to work for it. If a veteran player directs you to the codex and you aren't willing to take the time to go look it up, it seems very unlikely to me that you are going to last. There may be that rare exception, and I hope that's true in this case.

[Wil]

Since I know mostly veteran or dedicated players use the forums, I will take this opportunity to apologize for this morning's antics in global chat for any I offended. Don't get me wrong, I stand by my point. When someone asks a question in global that is directly answered verbatim in the codex, but claims they read "the rules," I have a problem with that.

Howdy,

I didn't see what you said, so I won't pretend to comment on whether you had the right of it. I will say this: it's been my experience that if I haven't said something at least four different ways then at least one of the folks listening misunderstood. If you're one of the folks listening, you can clarify your understanding by asking questions.

The codex here doesn't approach that level of thoroughness. And maybe it shouldn't try -- TLDR would be just as bad. But that leaves a need to ask questions.

Let me offer an example. The difference between "account" and "character" is pretty important in this game. There are a number of activities very central to the game which you're encouraged to do once per account. Should you do them once per character instead you will be harshly judged and punished. Even though those characters can have very distinct identities that players think of as separate from each other.

Given what an important rule that is, you'd expect it to be called out and explained in the codex, right? Where is it? It isn't there.

So unless they want to run afoul of the banhammer, it's actually pretty important for new players to ask questions in order to make sure they really understand the rules.

Regards,
Wil

[+Requiem]

I didn't read the world chat comment(s), as of yet so I am basing my reply off the information given in this thread alone.

Please do be helpful and answer other players questions, but only if you know the answer!

If you don't know the answer to something, please remain silent on the topic, or refer them to someone who does know the answer. Maybe something along the lines of, "It's in the codex, but if you have more specific questions, please either send me a pm, or page a GM". "I don't know", "I'm unsure", "Would be better if you paged" are all valid and helpful answers. Maybe not helpful directly to the player right that second, but better than giving them misleading information, and not having them understand, and winding up chat banned, or jailed, or otherwise penalized because YOU gave them wrong or confusing information.

Please, if you aren't 100% sure of something you are telling other players, especially when it comes to the rules then direct them to staff, or at least offer that option. "I think its blah blah, but you might want to page and verify." I still have to verify things with the other staff at times before answering a player as well, there's no shame in not knowing.

I'd also like to add, not knowing doesn't equate to not being punished for breaking a rule. Each and every player (and staff) is expected to know and abide by the rules. Remember, by logging in you are agreeing to them, so you should at least be familiar with the rules.

[Annachie]

Honestly there are times I'll ask a quick question knowing that the answer is in the wiki. For simple things, it's quicker. I suspect many of us do.

[EndeR]

I know this is not a joking matter and new players should be treated with respect and courtesy. I do agree also that if a player is not going to read the rules, they r probably not going to be long term players... All that being said while I was reading thru this thread an idea came to me...

Perhaps the gms could host an on the fly event (or 2 events and separate the players by account age maybe <120 days and >120 days) and in this event somehow quiz the players on knowledge of the codex... Just a thought, could be funny and could perhaps put some of the players that like to answer questions when they don't REALLY know the answer.

[Pariah]

I know this is not a joking matter and new players should be treated with respect and courtesy. I do agree also that if a player is not going to read the rules, they r probably not going to be long term players... All that being said while I was reading thru this thread an idea came to me...

Perhaps the gms could host an on the fly event (or 2 events and separate the players by account age maybe <120 days and >120 days) and in this event somehow quiz the players on knowledge of the codex... Just a thought, could be funny and could perhaps put some of the players that like to answer questions when they don't REALLY know the answer.

I actually really like this idea. Something from the codex could be asked as a question in global chat. First response gets a GM food item or something. And I agree with +Req, said player who was of the opinion that a wrong answer is better than no answer was seen giving out inaccurate information less than an hour later. IMO, this is far worse than directing someone to revisit the rules. Again, something in the wiki is completely different in my mind than a rules based question. I will myself occasionally ask a gameplay question that I could easily google (this is rare, I do try and find things on my own or in guild chat most often). However, if it's a question of "Am I allowed to..." I always visit the codex. I also agree on the PM angle. I use this as much as possible. In fact, just last night I was answering questions for a newer player via PM on arti-tag removal/type changing and relayers. I've seen the kind of answers that topic gets in global and it could cost someone hundreds of EDs to do it incorrectly. That's not to say there aren't people in global who know the answer, but the complexity, number of people responding, ability for anyone to respond, etc. makes it a dangerous proposition.

[EndeR]

and actually if possible, I was thinking some sort of a race, have an npc ask a question, and when given the correct response, allows u to pass to the next npc with another question. That would allow players that know the answers to move quicker and win the race for a better prize... and the players that did not know the answer could look it up (as a way to become more familiar with the codex) everyone that finishes could be given a participation prize and the winner ( or even say the top 10 depending on how many players participated) could be given something a little extra. all that being said I personally do not know the codex word for word, just enough to stay out of trouble lol. But it could even be a reacuring event as we are constantly getting new players that should/need to know the rules.

[Wil]

Pop up gump, once daily on login when player age < 30:

"Welcome to the community Name! Please learn our rules. Answer the following question correctly for 5,000 free gold coins:

Sir Joe logged on and blah blah blah. Did Joe break the rules?

[] Joe broke the rules and will be jailed.
[] Joe is a good guy. He did not break any rules.

You can find the answer at http://www.uoex.net/codex"

[+Nyx]

Or, people could take personal responsibility. I don't think it'd be a good idea to essentially harangue the new players, even for a reward, daily over the rules. Read them or don't, it's up to them. One doesn't have to know every law in the country, but one is still required to obey them, and a lot of it is just common sense. Same goes for here. If someone's going to not care to read them, or is being willfully ignorant, that is their own problem.

Re: Global chat, I also agree that no answer is better than a wrong, confusing, misleading or otherwise junk answer. Drives me crazy to see it happening so much in global - especially because the player who asked the question often takes this bad info as fact and passes it around accordingly.

[Pariah]

http://freakonomics.com/2012/01/04/why- ... o-podcast/

[+Nyx]

So true, Pariah. On top of that, you run into extremely large numbers of people who simply don't know what they don't know. They think they know this or that, but don't even realize they've got no clue. It ties into the same mindset as in the article - so many people are so insecure they can't stand to just say "I don't know" or "I'm not sure but I'll find out". When dealing with other human beings, I would always without fail prefer to hear those 2 options as opposed to some random wrong answer, or rambling politician's no-answer-answer.

[Wil]

People could take personal responsibility. One doesn't have to know every law in the country, but one is still required to obey them, and a lot of it is just common sense. Same goes for here. If someone's going to not care to read them, or is being willfully ignorant, that is their own problem.

Hi Nyx,

I read these comments with raised eyebrows. As an individual who applies many of the harsher punishments for rule breaking here, would you clarify your views?

Can you offer examples of rules you consider obvious and some examples of rules you you believe ought to be called out where a player can have no excuse for ignorance? And for the non-obvious ones, how far do you believe the gray area extends before harsh punishment is merited?

For example, governments require citizens to obey highway speed limits. But they don't consider those speed limits obvious, so they very prolifically post signs. More, the gray area generally extends 10% to 15% past the posted limits before enforcement is deemed fair. Speedometers are, after all, not perfect instruments. Nor are radar guns. More, that gray zone often extends 30% to 40% past the limits before anything more than mild corrective enforcement (small fines) is deemed fair. Ten over is a fifty dollar fine, described in the law as an "infraction," not misdemeanor reckless driving.

In some cases, rules are even arcane enough that governments take pains to assure that anyone in a position to seriously break them has first learned what they are. Consider professional licenses like an electrician's license. You can't work as an electrician without first demonstrating that you know enough about the fire code to avoid burning buildings down. Even then you have to work years of a supervised apprenticeship before you're allowed to work by yourself.

Which rules on Excelsior do you figure are not straight-up common sense? Rules where "personal responsibility" is still correct but not sufficient by itself to yield a fair and reasonable playing field?

You run into extremely large numbers of people who simply don't know what they don't know. They think they know this or that, but don't even realize they've got no clue.

That's certainly accurate, but I'm not sure it offers a truthful picture of the problem. Consider this rule for example:

"All [Mistvale] quests that are listed as non-repeatable are meant to be such."

Having read that I surely understand the rule, right? Some Mistvale quests may only be done once. They'll be labelled. Easy. Except obviously the labelled Mistvale quests are repeated. There's five folks running around the dungeons working the same quest and they'll all achieve it without breaking the rule. The strictly literal meaning is obviously wrong -- the "non-repeatable" quests aren't reserved solely for the first player to complete them. As ever, a player must use "common-sense" to understand the words and not be rigidly literal about it.

The problem with common sense is that no two people have exactly the same notion what is and isn't common sense. We're not clones; we don't all have the same brain. So while there's great overlap, there's a lot of wiggle at the edges too.

Seeking common sense, I look into my history playing quests on Excelsior, other UO shards and other games as well and indeed restrictions on repeating quests in games are quite common. I clearly understand that the character I'm playing must not repeat the quest, on penalty of, well, the wiki isn't perfectly clear but I'll at least be called an exploiter and that's generally a prelude to something bad. I don't want to run afoul of that, so I won't even attempt to run the quest more than once on each of the characters I play.

Wait, I misunderstood? I thought I knew the rule but didn't realize I had no clue? How can that be? I read the rule completely and used common sense.

Do you see the problem? Or did I waste my words?

-Wil

[fixxer1963]

[quote="
"All [Mistvale] quests that are listed as non-repeatable are meant to be such."

Having read that I surely understand the rule, right? Some Mistvale quests may only be done once. They'll be labelled. Easy.

***I clearly understand that the character I'm playing must not repeat the quest, on penalty of, well, the wiki isn't perfectly clear but I'll at least be called an exploiter and that's generally a prelude to something bad. I don't want to run afoul of that, so I won't even attempt to run the quest more than once on each of the characters I play.***

Do you see the problem? Or did I waste my words?

-Wil

You clearly did not understand the rules. It is once per account, not character.. sounds like an exploiter to me