Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

[+Colibri]

Before you vote, please read this post carefully.
We've had a poll before where players voted based on what others told them, it was a lot of rumors. Please only vote if you understand what this is about and want to express your opinion.

This is also a thing that's been on my plate for the past few months, but since the changes to Felucca travel got such a wild reaction, I best post this and let the players decide.

The problem is that the code for calculating what kind of ore or wood spawns where, has been cracked. It's not a hard thing to do actually, since the code for calculating veins is freely accessible from the runuo.com website, and with some not-so-beginner knowledge it's simple to re-script this system in let's say EasyUO, and it can actually show you where all on the shard platinum veins are, in a second.

My plan is the following:
Each spot of ore would have a limited number of digs, and once all of the ore is dug out at that specific location, it would be replaced with another random ore. The number would be approximately 500. The number of ore remaining would only go down if you dug up this special ore, not iron. So on a fresh platinum spot, if dug for 10 times, 9 of which was regular iron and 1 was an ore of platinum, there would still be 499 platinum ore remaining.
There's a problem with this theory, and it's that once all the platinum ores are mined out, it would be necessary to mine also the lower ores, in order to get them replaced with the better ones. To aid this problem, I would script in a timer, so that in for example 2-3 weeks, if there's still 90% of the ore in that spot, it would again be replaced with another random ore (which could a be better or a lesser one).
It would still be possible to mine a full cave and map out where lies what resource, but over time as those spots are mined out, that map would no longer be accurate.



Things to note
I strongly support this change because it equals the chance between those that can install EasyUO and eventually also find and use this script, and those that can't.

This is not a referendum where exactly 50.1% would pass the bill... but the results of this poll will be taken as input when making the decision. Though if it's for example 90% against the change, i will most probably not go forward with it.

Keep in mind that I would do this change to improve the shard (in this case to take advantage from those with good computer skills, to equalize with the average player). I also have 1001 better uses on how to spend a whole afternoon, I don't play UO anymore so I have nothing to loose if this doesn't go through

As for the discussion that will follow, please stay on topic, keep the criticism constructive, and don't flame.

[+Colibri]

P.S.: It's basically an exploit, but because it's completely on client side, it's impossible for us to do anything about it. Even if we knew who was using it, we couldn't prove it. Just because someone is mining a lot of platinum doesn't make them an exploiter

[Atropa]

As a person who is always in one cave or another simply because I do like to mine, so strange as that may sound I am against this.
Not just because it would make filling BODs harder since you do need certain ores but this will also effect things like gargoyle pickaxes and such not to mention prices on the more used/rarer colored ores are going to skyrocket since not many people really like to mine it is easier to recall around to set spots.
Since I'm a strip miner over all and I empty a cave it would not effect me as much I do not think unless I was going for elementals.
I'm aware one could use a prospecting tool or perhaps that would be corrupted in the coding? I do not know.
I have spent a lot of time mapping out ore spots in Tram,Fel,Malas and Ish soo yes I would be a little irritated about this change.
Overall though I would think it would make things harder to afford, not for people who have been here a bit but for younger players or those who simply do not make as much gold as others because the harder something is to get the more it will cost both in RL and in game.

[BlaZe]

I have mixed feelings about this, but I'm giving a thumbs-down vote mainly because people have invested sooo much time in making runebooks and rune libraries to specific mining/lumberjacking spots, myself included. What's next - making animal spawn locations more random to 'balance' things between the resource BODers and taming BODers?

I mean, it'd be alright to maybe make the veins so the ore/wood is downgraded by one every time its drained constantly, but randomly? For example: a certain Electrum spot has been drained for resources 5 times in a 24-hour period - so the next time it 'regenerates', it comes back as Toxic. If that Toxic vein is drained 5 times, it downgrades to Ice, and so on.. but if the vein only gets drained 4 times in that 24 hours, the ore type goes back up one (not exceeding what it was originally set as).

If this drastic change to vein plotting is implemented, I may as well throw my rune library idea out the window. I guess this wouldn't affect regular iron/wood.. but who the heck wants a library full of that?

-----

By the way, I have a copy of said EasyUO script that shows all the ore/wood types nearby. I haven't used it to collect the resources [or craft items with those resources] and sell 'em, but was planning on using it to essentially plot all the veins of Excelsior. Could it really be considered exploiting if it is used to share those oh-so-fun-to-find spots to everyone, publicly accessible?

P.S. Don't bother to ask for a copy of the script, I won't be sharing it without the author's consent. Even moreso because it has been classified as an exploit.

[tenetn]

Thought I'd throw in my two cents as bring relatively new to the shard, and having not played UO at all for about a decade.

The two main aspects of gameplay are based around hunting and resources. With hunting there is just about everything a player needs out there on support sites. There is no mystery about what spawns where and what objects different spawns drop. Therefore why should there be any mystery about where to get various resources? Personally, I use (and greatly appreciate) the rune libraries that other players have contributed, and have also done some mapping on my own. Part of the great thing about UO is the collaborative efforts put forth and the ability to stand on the shoulders of those that have come before you.

If I suddenly had access to a map of every resource location in the entire world, I really don't think it would put me at much of an advantage any more than carrying around my trusty runebook with all of the balron spawns handily marked.

I really don't think that somebody else having access to a cracked resource map really puts a newer player at that much of a disadvantage to be honest. As has been the case with UO from Day One (and yes I was there) people that want to spend most of their time finding exploits end up ruining the game for themselves more than for anybody else. So now you have 20 billion gold and the sweetest pet and kit money can buy. Now all you can do is spend your time upgrading your house and then realizing that nobody else really wants to come look at it.

As long as somebody isn't able to somehow "corner the market" on platinum ore, for example, I don't think it will have that much of a negative impact on the economics as there still is a roll on equipment attributes based on the tool employed.

Then again maybe I don't know what I'm talking about! :) I'm haven't quite grasped what the potential problem is with this exploit..

[!Avil!]

I would have to say personally i dont like this idea changing ore and wood locations when some people spend long hours scoping out choice spots for the ore wood and granite needed for special items that many people want but dont want to take time to find resources and train specific skills what harm is it if a player plays for crafting or hunting, whats next randomizing balrons so people who want to hunt them for essences all day cant find them or maybe randomly move animal trainers so people who do taming bods all day cant monopolize ?? i just think the shard is great for many different types of players and we hit how many milestones lately with the way its been and now WAM we need more changes "for our protection" dont trust it when i hear it from the government and cant say as it feels any better at the moment
thank you for reading my ramblings

[amadman]

I am one of the people that actually does like to mine. I think randomizing the ore would kill a big part of the mining experience.

To me a big part of mining is finding and plotting the different mining locations. I may have even noticed some patterns (maybe just imagined) But i considered that part of becoming an experience miner. It has taken me some time to find the locations that i now know and it would be a real bummer to have it all flushed away. And starting over would not sound to good if I knew it was all going to change again.

To me it really does not matter if someone knows where all the spots are. They can only mine so much by themselves before the spots start resetting. I for one go to many mines where I have never even seen another miner. So I know there are many great mining spots out there that are not even being minded.

If however there must be a change so people cant get the mining spots by reverse engineering the original script then I hope you only change the 'formula' to make a one time change of mining spots that does not change randomly after.

[Electra]

I spent many 100s of hours looking for all my mining spots and the thought of having to look for spots again makes me cringe. Plus it just diminishes my elaborate rune library that I made for my new guildmates so they didnt have to go throught the long grueling hours of locating good mining spots...please nooooo

[lancelot]

I agree with Electra. I only have a few spots I visit. But its the only way I have to get the cheap resources to help out new players with weapons and armor. And that is my favorite thing to do. If I lose those few spots, it will make it not worth the effort to gather the things I need. I just dont agree with punishing everyone because a few people found an easier way that may not be within the rules.

[Cygnus]

+Coli, I will have to also have to say no to a change and keep it like it is. I spent many months mining this whole shard to find as many platinum spots as I could till I decided to challenge myslef to see if I could find 100 spots which I finally did. It really burns me up that there are people still out there selfishly doing things to make their game easier, caring less if it ruins it for everyone else. Since it is hard for you to pinpoint who is exploiting, I am willing to make all of my spots public so these exploiters will not have any special advantge over anyone else, at least as far as platinum locations are concerned. I'd rather do this then let these human pieces of trash get what they want. My only solace would be is that players like these rarely stay around very long because they do not do anything that brings them any lasting satsifaction. They will get bored and eventually leave. As many have stated already, a change to random veins would really disrupt the rythmn of how players have played this game for a long time and dishearten enough to a point of defection I feel. I for one will not let idiots ruin the game for me and if they want to exploit, then it still won't change the way I play the game.

P.S. To the exploiters let me say this. Why play such a simple game if you have to cheat. Ill-gotten gains does not make you a better player. It cannot make you feel better, can it? Do the words intergrity and honesty hold any meaning to you? I sincerely doubt it. One last thing, I hope you exploiters are under 20 years of age. Not for legality sake, but I would hope that a grown adult would have enough maturity to know the childishness of these actions.

[Kimitsu]

well, actually the code wasn't cracked, it was a great deal of mapping, and then finding out there is a pattern to it, and then a lot of work calculating the pattern parameters, anyone could do it if they have enough brains, without any scripts and runuo source code (which was the case), so i assumed that this pattern is intentional, and encourages some insightful resource gatherers to solve the puzzle, and thus gain a well deserved advantage. but, if that was just a bug, well, too bad, it was really a lot of work. i don't see how would the solution of collibri be any good, though, so i say no. the best way imho is to leave the resource map static, thus mappable, but much more complicated, thus unpredictable, and ofcourse, to not let anyone see the code behind it.
PS. i'm really sorry for everyone who got in trouble because of that, but i can't understand how could people have whole shard mapped and don't see the pattern? i've seen it after a few rows of trees and actually supposed everyone knows it, even tried to ask about it on global... it was so obvious that i couldn't have imagined that studying it is an exploit.

[Cygnus]

Well, Kimitsu, you sound like Sherlock Holmes, a personal fictional hero of mine. Mapping doesn't sound like an exploit and it definitley doesn't sound like what Colibri mentioned in the first post. I feel if you are able to figure out a pattern based on your experience chopping and digging then more power to you. I've noticed some patterns but never felt the desire to follow it through. If you feel I was talking about you in my posts then I will apologize. I was aiming my rant at anyone who purposely looks for ways to circumvent laws/rules both formal and ethical for whatever reason. What you described was not that.

I personally enjoy the challenges of this game and I strive not to be the best or have the best so I can keep this game as fresh and entertaining as possible. It took me a year before I started to use pets. I beleive that the best reward and personal satisfaction come from personal achievment. I cannot fathom any personal satisfaction from using cheat codes, cracking codes, finding expoits , etc.

Anyways, let's hope that +Colibri keeps the mining system as it is.

[Quantrax]

I too would like to agree with what seems to be everyone posting so far in keeping the mining system as it is.
Even if it is for the sole purpose of all the hard work that has went into collecting mapping and marking runes upon runes of locations to spots and creating and devising massive libraries of information including previous friends of your own colibri.
For what i can only imagine to be a select few to have what you say exploited the server because Oh know they know a few platinum spots that are clearly already visible for the most part. And like previously stated by amadman
"They can only mine so much by themselves before the spots start resetting. I for one go to many mines where I have never even seen another miner. So I know there are many great mining spots out there that are not even being minded."
I am in total agreeance with that statement as for i would say darn near everytime I have played UO I my first skill is mining and smithing and have always enjoyed it. Though i do not do much of it anymore I still find myself back occassionally to mine a few platinum ore once in awhile to restock my ingots after my armour cache (that never hits a vendor but given away to new player or ones in need) or a few runics to make more i seldom see many people mining if any at all and i usually spend anywhere from quite a few hours to a whole day to mine at those times.

I am not sure as to where you have gotten the desire to make all these changes but i am sure it has been a long time running similar to this server. And this server seems to have been a long time running I personally know that being here at beginning and again approx 2 years after again for another 14 months. IMO its been here because of good implementation, staff and fixing things that WERE broke not the things that are not.
So I can not stress my NO answer enough as I feel as though it would hurt the younger more then the older even if there are a handful of ones that can say see the spots before mining them. NO different then libraries of runes.
I apologize if this sounds offensive by any means and I thank you for reading my ramblings.

Phoenix

[Penny]

I'd like to see it changed to random, it would make people actually buy their ingots to fill the BODs, thus allowing the miners to be able to sell their ingots better = more trading ^^.

Although in that case the rarer metals should be made more common too, now I think plat is about 1% of all veins. And mining 100 veins just to find one plat vein... maybe even remove normal veins and make all equally probable to spawn. Not to make it too hard for the miners. Maybe increasing the ore/logs per hit so the job wouldn't take hours.

And I do have dozens of runebooks for different veins, and spent days getting them, and dont mind if the veins change to random.


EDIT:
Well my main point is:
-Random veins would make mining/LJ actually a profession
-Increasing the ore/ingots/logs received would prevent the prices skyrocketing + miners/lumberjackers would get
a proper pay for their job

[Kimitsu]

Good point there, Penny. Feeling all sorry for not being able to map resources, and for loss of all those runes, if high level ore and wood would be, like, 5 times less rare, maybe it would be worth a try...
Yeah, but I'm not changing my vote until +Colibri changes the post, because right now we are voting here for his idea, description of which does not tell us about incerasing of anything.