The Apprentice quest (giant rats)

[Harabakc]

You can take your strawman and take a long walk off a short pier.

No one is saying nerf anything. What is being advocated is creating a challenge where there currently is none. Which seems to be what all these changes lately have supposedly been about.

[Karma]

Well I edited my last post as I was still angry with myslef for a stupid mistake I had made when I had wrote it. So iT was not put in the best manner. For that I do apologise. Its not broke no matter what you say Hara the econmeys isnt in danger from it. Msot are not going to farm millions in orgs. There is no need to change it. Add some other stuff sure but no need to remove this.

[Harabakc]

Give a man a fish, or teach him to fish?

I'll teach him. I'm not going to be everyone's sugar daddy and I don't expect anyone else to be either.

I'd much rather people learn to be self sufficient instead of giving them a gold fountain.

I'd also much rather see the people that want organics collect their own.

If you're unwilling to read his posts and call him wrong because you think you know what he's saying, then why do you expect anyone to read anything you say?

Again there is currently no challenge to make multi-millions as a brand new player. You can't see how that effects the economy? I realize not everyone has the same experience with gaming and MMOs but this should be easy enough to figure out for even people unfamiliar with the concepts behind it.

The idea that most aren't going to do it is a flawed idea. 1 person macroing spells to level weapons was enough to get that changed. How many people were afk fishing and using that did it take to get that changed? Things especially on this server get changed all the time because of 1 person.

[Karma]

Its suposed to be easy and low risk thats why its in the young dungeon. It has nothing to do with teaching them to fish as the ones with the drive to set there for hours non afk to grind orgs are the same ones with the drive to grind out millions after they are over 21 days. Lets be honest id rather grind balors all day long than those rats again for an hour. To sit there for hours non afk and grind those rats is work. Extreamly easy sure but even more boring than easy id say.
You talk about it as if its endless but it only last for 21 days per person.
You complain about there be no chalange in it. Id agree but i also say that if you wana argue for chalanging game play razor and easuo need to go also they are far worse to what happens to the games economey than the organics ever could be.
You complain about the millions they make when its no ones fault but our own, our own meaning all on the shard as we set the prices they sell for in the first place.
As far as jumping off that pier give me that adress and ill gladly meet you there.

[Harabakc]

I'm not the one who went on a change spree to "fix" the challenge on certain things lately. I'd much rather see something useful like skill elixirs that cap at 100 that would drop off things in the newbie dungeon that would actually remove some of the tedium of being a newbie instead of a gold fountain. Sitting there for days having to macro all your skills up to a usable level is far more likely to discourage new players then having to go out into the real world and earn real gold. Hell for that matter, make some of the stuff challenging, then you can put 10k gold per kill for all I care. There are far more effective ways to help new players without spoon feeding them.

[Llexa]

I'm not the one who went on a change spree to "fix" the challenge on certain things lately. I'd much rather see something useful like skill elixirs that cap at 100 that would drop off things in the newbie dungeon that would actually remove some of the tedium of being a newbie instead of a gold fountain. Sitting there for days having to macro all your skills up to a usable level is far more likely to discourage new players then having to go out into the real world and earn real gold. Hell for that matter, make some of the stuff challenging, then you can put 10k gold per kill for all I care. There are far more effective ways to help new players without spoon feeding them.

Hm so you want things to be less simple but you want skill elixers to drop off of some newbie mobs so it's easier for them to get their skills up? Isn't that trading one easy road for another? dont get me wrong i like both ideas, just curious about that logic. I think the rat thing is really nice for new players b/c at first you really dont have the str/hp to do much of anything and cause serious damage. + it is a nice way to meet players who are pretty seasoned b/c you do direct dealing with them. (side note: similar to my first days on excelsior -so long ago lol- when a kind soul decided to pay me for running some taming bods for him. yeah he was benefiting, like the organic collecting, but i had a blast doing something to help him and also getting paid for doing it. they were very easy bods but it past the time and i gained skill doing it.) also like some say, you grow out of wanting to do the quest after a bit and want to see the rest of the world lol. so i dont think it poses a problem. might be nice to additionally have skill essences but make them so only new players can drink them.

i would totally encourage the players who arent new to get young players to run some bods for you, like those simplest taming ones, so they have fun and get familiar with the world but also make some nice cash from those who can def spare it. another way to interact with the new players too. i would get 12k for a 10/10 BOD, 20k for a 15/15 BOD and 30k for a 20/20 BOD.

love,
Llexa

[Harabakc]

Once upon a time we used to get 2 50 point multi-use skillballs. I saw that as much more ideal then what we have now.

If your purpose is to attract/retain new players then take away the tedium. Macroing skills is the single biggest pain there is, everyone needs gold, but only new players need skills. I don't see how that's hard to understand. Capping skill elixirs in the newbie dungeon would allow you to let them gain skills while actually playing. Can you think of any skills sub 100 that would be problematic here? Remove crafting elixirs from the mix, you could even limit it further. Limit them to combat, casting, healing, spirit speak only or something to that effect. Then they would have an option to macroing everything.

Do you feel that having to manually raise or macro every skill up is a good thing? What do you learn from sitting there for a few dozen hours macroing? Probably about the same thing you learn from killing giant rats that die instantly and don't hit back. I was a newbie once too, this shard was the first place I ever played UO. I also had my fair share of bodies rot with what gear I had managed to gather up. I learned and moved on with a lot less help then newbie get these days and it wasn't a big deal. I'm also not your average player in both approach and attitude to games. The intended goal is to get new players started(if it's not why is there a new player dungeon at all?), there are better ways then giving them a bunch of gold to do it.

If you want to make stupid high loots as a boost for the newbie dungeon in addition then fine, I really don't give a crap, at least if it is in the second section of the dungeon where things can attack back there would be some degree of challenge. Regardless it cannot be argued that gathering organics in the newbie dungeon is challenging in the slightest way, in fact I would say macroing is more challenging then farming rats for organics. If you're willing to ignore them all together then you're not taking advantage of the one real advantage you have as a newbie.

As far as helping new players goes I do that in my own way. And in the course of doing that I've lucked into finding an articulate , intelligent player with the drive to play the game on a level that most of the server either doesn't care about or wishes they could reach.

[Llexa]

easy there tiger, youre gonna rupture an organ and no matter how 'enlightened' of a friend you have, he cant fix that

love,
Llexa

[Harabakc]

I guess it strains people to read my posts more then it does me to write them. /shrug

[Tael]

If your purpose is to attract/retain new players then take away the tedium.

Yes. You could even start everyone with 75 in everything; it wouldn't spoil the economy for the established players, and you could still enjoy being pretty much useless as a new player

I do think that it's nice not to give away GM's or better too lightly, otherwise attaining the skills won't give a sense of accomplishment. So I like the policy here that you have to leave the training room to top off your skills, even if another part of me is impatient with it.

[Glyph]

I actually agree with several points made above. I may be among the minority, but I see the dropping of organicsin the newbie dungeon as horribly backwards.

I have been witness to several new players being approached by veterans who offered to "help out" the new players by striking exclusive buying rights to any organics the youngs may hunt up. The volume of gold offered seems mountainous to the new, niave, player and strikes the deal so as to "get rich quick." Later, after the magical 21 days have passed, they then realize how hard it is to get said organics, but conversely, they discover how easy it is to make gold out in the "real" world of Excelsior.

Many youngs are reduced to something akin to child labor working for clever vets. This just seems so wrong somehow, and a way to exploit the new players lack of knowledge for personal gain. Is that what this shard meant to happen??

And Harabakc has hit directly on the head something that plaques many free servers: training sucks. Most of us are transplants from either many years of OSI or from numerous other private servers. Sit there and think to yourself,"how many times have I had to GM magery through the years...or mining...or taming..."

Yes, gains are very fast when compared to OSI. But we all play games to have fun and while some DO take pleasure in having virtual jobs (like skill training), others want to sit back and have a world of options laid before them without having to say to their friends "I'd like to come, but not sure how effective I would be...I need to train <insert skill name here> higher first", or worse, sit back and team with a high powered player where your only task is looting.

Skills shouldn't come free, but really, in all eventuality, we will master them all and it doesn't hurt anything if we do it fast or slow. So why not drop skill elixirs instead of organics inside the newb areas. It let's then hurry up and get into the rest of the world where they can explore and make real gold rather than being someone's pet organic harvester?

[Tael]

So why not drop skill elixirs instead of organics inside the newb areas.

Even better would be stat potions---gain 5 points in the stat of your choice. Raising stats is much slower than raising skills, and I feel very useless with low stats.

[Harabakc]

I'd rather just see starting character stats be raised instead of that. Or hell, just a mix of both.

[Tael]

I'd rather see people have to do something for their stat gains, even it it only requires a modest effort whacking easy stuff. If you don't have to work at all for something, you won't value it. It's a delicate balance. Sure you could even double the starting stats without spoiling the game, but you have to be aware that an aura of cheapness taints excessive giveaways, and that can take the fun out of playing.

I guess the problem is that this threshold is not the same for everyone.

[Harabakc]

I've had more then a few friends that wouldn't even give the game a real try because of the required macroing just to get to a point to where they could play. I don't quite see stats on that same level, but in all honestly it's not a big deal either way. As it is now most people don't understand the benefits of stats, so I tend to doubt if doubling starting stats would make any difference.