Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

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+Colibri
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by +Colibri »

fixxer1963 wrote:Well... this post has certainly highlighted some sociopaths.
I already knew about most of them... but now I have at least one more to add to the list.
Please stay on topic. We have different views on how the market should work, and putting such labels on others doesn't help with the discussion of the problem, and getting our points across.
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Johnny Warren
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Johnny Warren »

I agree with the leave it as is. However I have reported in the past bear masks dyed SoT hue and listed for a few mil etc which is clearly against the ethos of the server. High prices is one thing, deliberate scams seems like it should have a punishment attached. I agree with +C in that it is very subjective for staff, but I would trust their decision. ie in the fake SoT case I'd give em 10-20 tasks and say do it again and its 100.

I would not waste time writing code and further baby proofing the trading system. The server is very helpful in price evaluation and advice... if you're going to drop 200 ed or 10 mil, know what you're buying. If you don't know, ask, confirm etc.

But consider adding it to the codex that 'deliberate scams' can carry punishment at staffs discretion... "if it seems dodgy, don't do it" or something like that.

my $.02

PS Don't want to be scammed, don't buy from michellancello.
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Wil
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Wil »

Make a game of it. A minigame.

Buyer asks seller to refund.
Seller refuses.
Buyer demands trial. Posts a bond to be forfeited on loss.

Buyer and seller agree on a time for the trial. Admin picks if no agreement.
At the time of trial, a "jury" is impaneled by randomly asking folks online to participate. Anyone else online can join as spectators (aka hecklers).
Buyer and seller make the case why the sale was fair or unfair.
Jury sides with seller - bond paid to seller for his trouble.
Jury sides with buyer - buyer gets refund -and- keeps the item.
Jury gets fabulous participation prize.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Slartibartfast »

I think the satisfaction guarantee has the potential to inconvenience and frustrate all sellers more than these few situations have inconvenienced and frustrated those few buys.

Calling on my experience as an IRL seller, I used to sell a product for vacationers on a certain large online marketplace whose policies made it acceptable for the buyer to "scam" the seller. Without fail, after every vacation season we got LOADS of returns because people were done with their vacation and now wanted their money back, so they made a claim that the item was damaged (for example) and then returned a product that was in perfect condition.

I don't think it would get that bad here but I would hate to see our EX marketplace go down that path. I'd prefer to see this handled in incremental degrees (if necessary).

First, make the problem known and discuss it, as we're doing here. This in itself will probably help the situation. Some sellers will probably make a greater effort to describe their items that may be confusing. Some buyers will probably be more careful to do some research, compare prices, etc. Maybe have the town crier tell people to go to the forum and read this post. Maybe link to it in the codex so new players will see it as they join.

If it's still an issue after that then maybe implement your coding solutions. I'd hate for that to delay events and content stuff, so I'd give it a low priority.

After that, if it does become necessary then I think codex changes should be a last resort. If it becomes that serious, though, I'd really rather see a systematic change than a codex change. Something like a 24 hour window (or a period defined by the seller) for the buyer to drop the item back on the vendor for a refund, with fees refunded to the seller as well. Also a restocking fee that the vendor withholds from the refund -- this would compensate the seller for the inconvenience and would also make buyers less likely to abuse the system ("That's a nice weapon! I'm gonna buy it for this quest I'm doing and then return it!"). This would also be in keeping with your goal of automation and self-service so +'s don't have to spend their time investigating claims.
Again, I think this kind of systematic solution should be a last resort if this becomes a common problem.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Cengaver »

I am edited my old reserved message and i wish adding here some of my reverse trade experiences, and topic dumbing, maybe helpfull...

Firstly i must say i am totally 6month player in here and 5 month vendor owner, but i think i am in top 20, trade dialoque not exacly this, i am writing here what i remember and what i understand, bad englis dont judge me please i dont want one by one discuss for that...

+someone buyed chivalry120 power scroll on my vendor and messaged me, said (mean) "i cant raise my chivalry to 120" , i am explain and i am said (mean) "you must use elixer or skillball", he messaged me another day and said "hey i have chivalry 120, give my money" i am not buyback

+someone asked me discount for many ps on my vendor, and we make big deal (i.m.o.), but after 3 hours later, we making champ together, and he claimall to boss corpse, i am warn gently about its not fair, but he angry to me, says something badwords and asked me reverse trade, i am accept reverse trade

+i am buyed a item with 50-60 gold, i think its wrong pricing, my hearth said me its not good, and i am said him what happen to seller, he accept wrong pricing but he said "you deserve it keep them" he not want to reverse trade

+someone buyed background items, but on item cost low then background, (item price < background price) he asked me and said (means) "i wish buy item on up to background, but i am misclicking, and buyed background item, i am accept buyback but i am keep normal item cost and i am gived him, item (he wish buy) + overprice to background item cost, i am taked only normal item cost, but i am thinking if i writed morreee high price to backgrounds item, and this is happen, its totally wery big waste, and i am clear all priceless background items or replace normal pricing

I saw in 5 month, market mechanics wery complicated and decoratives another job like real life, for example monalisa pictures in real life :D, i think its only a picture, if you show me 2 picture with similar lenght, monalisa and meganfox, wohhoo i am directly select meganfox lol but how much meganfox picture? and how much monalisa picture ???? and why???

"Likes Changing Prices"

I think this is perfect example for "Demand And Suply On One Time" and "Likes Changing Prices" laws, in middle age this picture priceless, but now SOMEBODY offer many million dollar for take it this picture, this law similar in game, if somebody wery like a item (weapon, deco, deed etc) ready for spend much money for buying

If i saw, one item on vendor, i am looking price, actually price means : "i want this price for this item, if you know and wish this item, you must pay this cost" othervise are we selling closed box, or supprise box ???

We cant accept and permit for "i dont know this item..." or "i think this item..." are we doing gamble??? or dreams sales???

bottom line: for more info about demand and suply laws how works http://www7.esc.edu/fmendels/economics/
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by +Colibri »

Thank you all for your input, I've scanned through, and when I can I will take the time for a more focused read.

Just a note on the format of the discussion: Cengaver, when you have a reply, it's best to just create a new reply to the topic, and it will be placed at the bottom of the thread - so that what you wrote is chronologically ordered with the other posts. I've never seen such a thing on the forums, and overall in life, "postdating"/"predating" is usually not allowed (to cause a document to have a different date than when it actually happened). I've added a comment to your first reply.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Cengaver »

+Colibri wrote:Thank you all for your input, I've scanned through, and when I can I will take the time for a more focused read.

Just a note on the format of the discussion: Cengaver, when you have a reply, it's best to just create a new reply to the topic, and it will be placed at the bottom of the thread - so that what you wrote is chronologically ordered with the other posts. I've never seen such a thing on the forums, and overall in life, "postdating"/"predating" is usually not allowed (to cause a document to have a different date than when it actually happened). I've added a comment to your first reply.
Hmm i understand something, tywm for noticing :D
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by mineiro »

I think you should leave as it is and adding some description can really help, specially on ethereal itens which sometimes can really be confusing for new players to understand wheter it is a mount or not.

As most have mentioned, I don't think scam is common on our server and the few ppl who actually do it are usually identified by our friendly community.

I have spent thousands of gold on itens I regret but thats the way the game is, sometimes you have to buy and use the item to understand how it works (or not). Asking around always has helped me and if sometimes you don't get a price check just be more patient. Some itens I have spent over a month just considering or not buying it and eventually I made a better decision for myself, it is a long term game so sometimes rushing decisions are not wiser (just like in real life).

So I think if compared to all trades that go on, the percentage of "scams" are really small and should be not taken into account for a bigger change. Leaving it this way and adding the warning descriptions should help avoid future misunderstandings.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Athena Tenebris »

I do not think anything really needs to change.

At most; I do like the idea of adding code to warn you that it is not usable due to it being a 20 year vet or something :) But I feel other areas of coding really should be focused on more for time well spent.

If a scam happens, people can report it and it can be dealt with as necessary.

If someone sells something for 20 gold instead of 20 ed, then unfortunately they should just hope that the person bought it lets them know, otherwise not worry about it and move on and be extra careful when pricing something out.

Rules are good, but not every single thing should be governed by rules.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by culichi »

i am one of the people who has been paging about this issue. i can see how colibri really doesn't have the time or staff to deal with this issue in a way that is fair to everyone so how about something kinda sorta fair? if a seller is playing games with pricing and descriptions rather than hope colibri can figure out the sellers true intentions just warn the seller that its their responsibility to avoid misunderstandings and they have now been warned. too many complaints or warnings and that player will lose their town center vendor and not be allowed to replace it for whatever amount of time.
this system wouldnt be the fairest way to deal with the issue but due to staffing shortages i think its the best option. treat town center vendors as a privilege that can be taken away at any time not only for clear violations but even for merely the appearance of shadiness.
town center vendors are a huge advantage and its not unreasonable to demand some extra responsibilities from players that are lucky enough to have a vendor there.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Johnny Warren »

After reading culichi's post I have another suggestion to add. How about instead of adjusting vendor rules we just remove some of the restrictions regarding world chat abuse of players etc. If someone has something dodgy on their vendor and are trying to rip people off then make it NOT against the rules for players to run "anti-ads"... If once every 2 hours I post up:

"Don't buy the ethy mount off playerX unless you are over 24 months, you can't use it! While I'm at it, the diablo for 60mil on playerX's vendor is JUST DECO don't buy it unless you REALLY want an overpriced piece of deco"

or I could make it a little more snarky....

"Beware of playerX's vendor, many items are overpriced and look as if they're trying to be something they're not. I would not use playerX's vendor unless you are an experienced buyer... don't let yourself be ripped off!"

What do you think? I've been calling out michellancello's shady dealings on the forums for a while, would be nice to be able to call out other scammers in game without fear of getting into trouble...
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Johnny Warren »

Cengaver wrote: adding here some of my reverse trade experiences, and topic dumbing, maybe helpfull...

i am accept reverse trade
I just spoke with a player in game who said that you listed a mini diablo figuring for 500ED (at that ridiculously high price most would assume its an ethy and rideable) The player bought it, realised it was not rideable and asked for his money back. you not accept reverse trade. Don't try and paint yourself as a good vendor operator when you are one of the scammers this whole thread is about.

Just so everyone knows Lion's vendor has the same mini Diablo for sale for 60mil (after dropping it from 125mil). He is obviously trying to scam someone too, it is a deco item, not a rideable. Buyers beware of his vendor, only buy from there if you know what you are doing.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Muolke »

qbf wrote:
Cengaver wrote: adding here some of my reverse trade experiences, and topic dumbing, maybe helpfull...

i am accept reverse trade
I just spoke with a player in game who said that you listed a mini diablo figuring for 500ED (at that ridiculously high price most would assume its an ethy and rideable) The player bought it, realised it was not rideable and asked for his money back. you not accept reverse trade. Don't try and paint yourself as a good vendor operator when you are one of the scammers this whole thread is about.

Just so everyone knows Lion's vendor has the same mini Diablo for sale for 60mil (after dropping it from 125mil). He is obviously trying to scam someone too, it is a deco item, not a rideable. Buyers beware of his vendor, only buy from there if you know what you are doing.
Say it ain't so...Cengaver trying to scam people??? Nooooo that never happens :verymad: :verymad: :verymad:
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by mineiro »

I recently got back playing after ages stopped, and started chatting on world's and Cengaver came to talk to me, in a couple of questions I really got who he is... When I asked something embarrasing about trading he just went off to another subject and then no answer at all. It was really weird... At first he said, "I find very good deals, thats why I made this nice equipment" :verymad:
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Cengaver »

qbf wrote:
Cengaver wrote: adding here some of my reverse trade experiences, and topic dumbing, maybe helpfull...

i am accept reverse trade
you not accept reverse trade. Don't try and paint yourself as a good vendor operator when you are one of the scammers this whole thread is about.

Cengaver wrote: i am not buyback
i see you are blind or not read my post fully, i am putting here 4 type my experience, and first example end i am clearly said i am not buybak, its totally me, (this is me) (i am) how i can explain this, i am not roling otherone or not try painting another camuflage, my all word is clear and true
qbf wrote:I would not waste time writing code and further baby proofing the trading system. The server is very helpful in price evaluation and advice... if you're going to drop 200 ed or 10 mil, know what you're buying. If you don't know, ask, confirm etc.


totally i am said this actually, if you dont know, dont buyed, he sended a message me about statue, but he not want my reply and buyed, and after trade he want 500ed, i am said vendor cutted %3 485ed, he only said 500ed and i dont want reverse trade with this price, i am not saying or writing anywhere lie or wrong info/desc, i am wery tired explain whats happen.

Colibri said me 2 times "post your concern about this rule on the forum." otherwise, i dont want listen or explain anymore...

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and molke, i dont want talking you anymore, ewerybody know your 9/10 words lie, and 1/10 unknow....


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and meniero, wow, i came to you and open discussion about trades directly?? maybe we look some records for your lies ??

you! said hello on world chat

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after this you! sended me pm for talking (new messages below to top look times)

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after this you! sended me pm for about my gears (new messages below to top look times)

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and after all i am warn you! about me...

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you got nothing understand about me, i am saying ewerything to you about me, but all in your lies (i know why you saying this lies) one thing is true,
"I find very good deals, thats why I made this nice equipment"
this is totally true, i sold many item with good deal, i am not saying any lie or wrong anything, i have all screenshot about all my talks and trades, Colibri can check all my messages for correction

i am playing this game for relaxing chatting but i am not enjoying anymore cos this types player, i am totally clean but i dont want talking fight with liar gossiper, i know some trash people living in excelsior but i see its over and over counts.... dot
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