Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

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+Colibri
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Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by +Colibri »

In light of recent issues with trade of high-value items, I'm considering a change to the codex and overall policy.

The overall rule on this shard regarding trade of items is "Buyer beware" (caveat emptor). There have been cases in the past when a buyer bought something that didn't meet expectations, and when this was reported, I asked the seller to consider refunding the trade. In most cases, it was reversed, buyer was happy. I don't know if the seller reversed the trade because they felt in a way intimidated, you know how it might be when the +Authority "asks" for something :lol: though well, I've tried my best to to make it clear to the seller that it was a legitimate trade and it's completely up to them and that there will be no black marks on their record, if they decide not to undo the trade.
Similar stories were also in cases of trade errors, for example making an ED sell order on [exex for 52... not 52k, but "52"... gold. To the seller in this case, it seemed as if exex ate their money, but the issue clears up after looking into the trade logs. I then contact the buyer, who is happy to have bought a stack of ED at a bargain price. After explaining to them the user error of the seller, in most or if not all cases, they got in touch and made adjustments to make it into a fair transaction.

Though, in October there were two high-value transactions, that were borderline scams, though opinions differ:


- A decorative diablo statuette, labeled "mini diablo", priced at 500ED, for which the buyer thought was an ethereal mount.
mini diablo.png
mini diablo.png (11.56 KiB) Viewed 6973 times
- A 6-year veteran reward ethereal spynx, priced at 10 million gold, for which the buyer didn't know they wouldn't be able to use.
veteran sphinx.png
veteran sphinx.png (33.74 KiB) Viewed 6974 times
In both cases, when I contacted the seller to consider reversing the trade, they refused, and that's completely legit.
But doing nothing in this case, does support these questionable sales practices... Take any item that seems cool, try to sell it for a huge amount of money, in which case the high price tag implies that it's rare & usable, wait for it to sell, and you're in the clear.


So, looking at both sides of the issue:

Arguments for keeping the Caveat emptor (buyer beware) policy:
- It's a simple rule. All sales are final.
- Knowing an items worth and doing research is part of the game.
- Definition of a trade is "money is exchanged for goods".
- Once the seller gets money, they spend it for another thing, which can make it hard to undo trades.
- The two problematic items mentioned above didn't have misleading seller's description, and had no properties that would be the same as ethereal mounts: "mini diablo 2015" is not the same as "ethereal diablo", the veteran reward item had a clearly written "veteran reward: 72 months".
- The buyer might be satisfied with the item at first, but then a few days later find a better/cheaper option.
- It's impossible to say for sure whether a price on an item is "fair", or expensive, or just a scam. Jailing sellers because of a high price tag is too subjective.
- If trades would have to be reversed, the seller would then just put the item back on the vendor and wait for another player to buy it.
- Our shard is already so baby-proof, adding more safeties is a never-ending problem.
Bottom line: Making a rule where staff would have to determine whether this is actually a scam or not, and then also undo the trade (and the seller might have already spent the cash on something else), can be too time consuming if these issues are too frequent.

Arguments for changing the rule to Caveat venditor (buyer satisfaction guarantee) policy:
- Excelsior is a community where we play alongside eachother, not against eachother. It's in our motto, "respect other members of the community"
- Undoing the trade isn't harmful to the seller at all - they can just
- Definition of a trade is "seller gets money from a satisfied buyer".
- It's a very complicated game, getting scammed in the process will turn away new players who don't yet know all of the details.
- Not changing the rule creates an environment where tolerating questionable trade practices actually promotes such activity, with fair players seeing it as a frustration and either picking up the same practice, or stop playing.
- This is already an unwritten rule (de facto), and the codex should reflect this fact by writing it down.
Bottom line: these are the values of Excelsior, it makes our shard what it is - friendly community, safe environment, and being able to form long term connections.

(These are the arguments came up with so far.... Although the number of arguments is not equal, it's the weight of each of them that counts most).


There's a technical solution I could make in the game. As you are buying an item, a notification would pop up:
- if it's something you can't use (e.g. veteran reward) it would show a big red warning to notify the buyer that they won't be able to use this item.
- for any item, it would display a description of what it is: "decorative item", "weapon", "ethereal mount", "a shrunken pet (dragon)"


I'm looking for more input, so that whatever rule we end up with, it's something we discussed first. Or maybe there's a middle path, a hybrid of both.

If you have recently had a similar issue: bought an item, and then realized that you either can't use or it's not what you expected, I'll apprecite if you can either post a reply here, or you can also send a ticket through the in-game helpsystem. So that I can be aware of all similar issues.
+Colibri, Administrator of UO Excelsior Shard

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Mansonjr
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Mansonjr »

Well, My opinion:

I saw these items before, on the market and wondered about the same, didn't bought because this fear.

And now i see it happened... Sad to hear that practiques...

I'm in this old game and this community because i'm tired of every internet selfishness, so my side will be with the buyer.

Even if it's true you need to know the market and that is part of the game... I'm having great difficulties.. the game is old... all not fit in official wikis and uoex wiki obviously doesn't tell you how to play basic ultima online (but it helps a lot!! whitout this uoex wiki i'm lost!).

So for clarify, i like the Buyer satisfaction option, i found a lot of kind ppl and i think it fits with the community.

Sorry for my english and if something is confusing please, tell me :P
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by tank »

Well imho i think that everything is fine the way it is. People (please dont take this wrong) need to not be lazy and rush take your time a due dil and get prices and look for the same item else where to compare as you stated. Or ask other players for a price check, As for the sellers possibly marking things for sell think that goes the same take your time and pay attention to what you mark things at. just my 2 cents...
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cope80
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by cope80 »

I feel like if someone makes an uninformed purchase (no type of scamming involved) then that is on them. The same holds true in life in most cases. Whether it is an uninformed purchase, uninformed sale, buyers remorse, or sellers remorse. There is no one walking around with us through life warning us of what we are buying or selling. We have a great community and most if not all are willing to make it right when something goes wrong unintentionally. I do not believe that making any changes to protect anyone from uneducated buying or selling is the answer. However the technical solution mentioned... I feel like that could help "newer" players and make them feel a little more secure. So I say leave it as Caveat emptor and possibly create the technical "solution" to give a bit of a helping hand so to speak.
There's a technical solution I could make in the game. As you are buying an item, a notification would pop up:
- if it's something you can't use (e.g. veteran reward) it would show a big red warning to notify the buyer that they won't be able to use this item.
- for any item, it would display a description of what it is: "decorative item", "weapon", "ethereal mount", "a shrunken pet (dragon)"
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deathkiss
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by deathkiss »

I agree with Tank. If you are gonna spend a large sum... do your research. Even in real life you are not going to drop a large sum of money without looking into what you are paying for. I also like the idea that if the item is something someone will not be able to use (example: vet reward) that a warning does pop up to warning them.
I always dig around the forum and wiki looking for advice and if I can't find it I ask. I say never be afraid to ask for advice from other players or the staff! My husband and I have been playing for many years on Excelsior and are happy to report that everyone we have played/interacted with have been the nicest/most helpful folks ever! We are very happy to be part of the EX Family!
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Durisat »

I have been a member for over 6 years and overall, our community is great and helpful. I like the red flag popup idea and I also think that +C's "Technical Solution" will be an asset to the site. Excelsior is a huge, complex and fun world. There are monsters out there and a few notifications are not going to destroy the world, but will make the newbie experience safer and more enriching.

In my first year online, I bought a veteran reward mount, not knowing that I would have to be that age to use it (luckily just a few months), but it was frustrating at the time (and being newbie, was low on cash), but I acknowledged my misunderstanding and moved on.

We have something that so few other shards have and that is a tremendously helpful, friendly community of users. Others users have moved here, from other shards, because of our community and have helped make it even more friendly! We should not have to have some many walls that we cannot move around, but on the other hand not everyone who joins is as helpful as the majority. A few rules to cover circumstances are not daunting and in the long run, our shard will be even better!!
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Muolke
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Muolke »

I'm going to echo the sentiments of the majority up to this point and say to just leave it as it is. The disclaimer on an item that you cannot use is probably a good improvement but if we start adding these "satisfaction guarantee" rules it's just going to turn into a zoo and cause more headaches than you can imagine.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Cengaver »

Moderator's note: The contents of this post were added at a significantly later time, than then posts' original time.
Last edited by Cengaver on Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
+Colibri, 2019-11-19 22:15 shard time.



I choice Leave it as is and "Buyer beware" (caveat emptor) is best for servers, but if seller said or writed, wrong or lie info/description, buyer must have choice of request reverse trade

Actually if player try to buy item on vendor, games menu open and asking "are you sure??" if buyer dont want to ask about item props to seller, or own friends, or worldchat to other players, can we say "seller makes badthings" ? its all buyers fault and why seller must make reverse ???

"Knowing an items worth and doing research is part of the game" and needed moretime for price check, its completly a job, and wery advantage for players, "knowledge is power", i see some player only doing market buy and sale, no farming, no crafting, only buy and sell, and can we say its illegal or this bad things? we have perfectly price checking utility vendor.uoex.net, why people dont use first this page and crying?

"It's impossible to say for sure whether a price on an item is "fair", or expensive, or just a scam. Jailing sellers because of a high price tag is too subjective." wery true and another point is, can we ask to buyer after trade, why you need this items? if you think expensive, why you buyed directly? i see many ethereal skeletal steed in to market with price 300k-1mil, why buyer need a mounth with more high price??? its running fast?? or fly?? or give stat bonus?? its difference looks only but people want this lookings and paying for decoratives wery wery wery much prices, "ethereal diablo statuette" actually only decorative ethereal mounth and price is 5000ED , what is difference other ethereal mounts? can running fast ?? or can fight boss??? its similar for other ethereal mounth but price is 5000ED, lol and somebody says 5000ED is cheap price :D i see one house, 20 titan hammer stacked for decorative, are you imagine??? 20 titan hammer means 40000ED and its using for decorative lol

And after all my experience on market, i understand one thing is with wery important, Price changeable in time wery quickly like wind, i means, i can say many example, 10 days ago decorative globe selling 5mil, but now 1 mil, 1month ago bone crusher clerance sale for 300ED, but now going 150ED, sunglasses goes 1-2mil but now 5-10mil, can you see difference with litle time?? one law true in market prices "Demand And Suply On One Time" today prices 100mil tomarrow 1mil, if buyer think expensive, please dont buyed, after 2 3 month, if you impact hammer to seller head for reverse trade, and if price is changed in market, how seller selling again??? we talking about buyer satisfaction, but why not talking about seller satisfaction??? how many item i lost with wrong prices writing, its my fault and i am learning double check prices, can i reverse for this??

My stories, after 4 5 wery high price buyings (but i am not cryed for reverse trade), one full day, i am checked all vendor and price noted, I see one similar item with many prices, i see a candy with 200gold but other vendor selling 10mil!!!, if i hated seller with 10mil price, or not ask seller or anyone, and after buyed, can i say "oh colibri help me i am buyed a candy for 10mil, i think its supper candy, i think if i ate this i can fly, but i cant fly, reverse trade please *crying* " ???? pfft

Unbelievable discussion
Bottom note: i am edited sorry for my englis i am copy paste outcome from translator :D
Last edited by Cengaver on Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
Mansonjr
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Mansonjr »

deathkiss wrote:I agree with Tank. If you are gonna spend a large sum... do your research. Even in real life you are not going to drop a large sum of money without looking into what you are paying for. I also like the idea that if the item is something someone will not be able to use (example: vet reward) that a warning does pop up to warning them.
I always dig around the forum and wiki looking for advice and if I can't find it I ask. I say never be afraid to ask for advice from other players or the staff! My husband and I have been playing for many years on Excelsior and are happy to report that everyone we have played/interacted with have been the nicest/most helpful folks ever! We are very happy to be part of the EX Family!

Sorry but i do not agree that,

You both say take your time and do your research, because that's some kind of "laziness".

Can you tell me the part where put a simple description on the seller "Not usable item" when putting to vendor require less effort than study what kind of items is or taking time of other ppl asking?

I asked a few times for a price checks, and yeah ppl has to do his things, so they are not gonna answer every time and i'm not wanting them to do that, is their time.

¿Why i have to spend my time looking for the item willing to buy?

I don't know where all the ppl buy the things, but normally is the Seller effort to explain and sell you the item, no the client side.

It's illogical make to the "Customer" "Research the items you're gonna buy because i'm lazy to put a description"

Remember, the seller is always who gots the benefit, because them look for gold, so why less effort from the seller side? I totally not agree to guilty the customer "Lazyness"

Edit: Indeed in real life when you're gonna spend some money, look for information, and tell me who normally give you most of the final information? The seller, because he's interested. I know sellers response to pm asking, but again, why taking time and losing all time with pms and asking ppl instead of 30 second of put some description. Totally not agree to give the customer any guilty of nothing. oh and i forgot, you got 15 days to return everything you want, granted by law. so... let me know where is the logical thing here to protect to this point the sellers.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Gaara »

Mansonjr, i'm not sure you understood the main post correctly. The extra text would be something that +C would have to code in and personally i agree with the rest: if you buy a high value item without doing your research, or you assume the item works in X way without any indication given (or scam attempts occurring) that's 100% on the buyer. People should use their brain more instead of expecting to be held by hand with everything...

However, the "you can't use this item" tag wouldn't hurt but i'd personally put that on low priority.

All in all, players who are rude or try to scam others usually disappear after a while. People here don't tend to put up with that sort of behaviour and word gets around quick.
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Animol
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Animol »

Leave it as is and only intervene when an actual, deliberate scam (misleading description etc.) shows up on the radar.

Signed,
Someone who willingly reversed a few erroneous trades in the past, even when not asked to by a + :P
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Nick »

The "mini diablo" I saw for sale for a few hundred eds caught my eye (thought it might be a ridable mount) however, the sellers description on it was THIS IS NOT A RIDEABLE MOUNT in all caps. IDK if it was the same one.... I have sold 400 ed items for 400 gold... and never found out who got the deal of a life time.

this week I sold a 125ed item for 125 gold and a firend bought it and gave it back to me so no one would take it. I do like the Idea of a YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO Equip/ride this item ect. however, the only actual scams I have seen are dyed polar bear masks described as cheapest SOT... and even in that case you can see what it is you are buying...

I don't think any changes are necessary, would be nice to have runic tools in [exex
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Muolke »

Nick wrote:The "mini diablo" I saw for sale for a few hundred eds caught my eye (thought it might be a ridable mount) however, the sellers description on it was THIS IS NOT A RIDEABLE MOUNT in all caps. IDK if it was the same one.... I have sold 400 ed items for 400 gold... and never found out who got the deal of a life time.

this week I sold a 125ed item for 125 gold and a firend bought it and gave it back to me so no one would take it. I do like the Idea of a YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO Equip/ride this item ect. however, the only actual scams I have seen are dyed polar bear masks described as cheapest SOT... and even in that case you can see what it is you are buying...

I don't think any changes are necessary, would be nice to have runic tools in [exex
A few months ago I sold a +45 stat scroll for 240 gold instead of 240ED. It sucks but it is what it is. It's a learning mistake. We can't put rules around everything...mistakes are part of the game.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Iltar »

I think that there is no necessity to describe everything in codex - its just a game, and if I remember correctly, Codex already says that gms do final decision. For example, for items valued more than 100ed, gms can in some obvious cases decide that it is scam or mistake, though not always.
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Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by fixxer1963 »

Well... this post has certainly highlighted some sociopaths.
I already knew about most of them... but now I have at least one more to add to the list.
Hawke Armstrong/FiXXer
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