Healing + Dex Discussion
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
100% means double dmg, and I think the imp pet 200% counts as base dmg from what I've seen.
EDIT: If only 100% counts as base dmg, the total is 3,000%, which is about 15 times what i do with my bow.
EDIT: If only 100% counts as base dmg, the total is 3,000%, which is about 15 times what i do with my bow.
Failure is not an option, it's a standard.
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
Great opinions and thanks for keeping it respectful. Keep em coming!
-{Excelsior Shard Administrator, and Death Event Extraordinaire}-
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
- Johnny Warren
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Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
There is nothing, not one thing at all, nothing, stopping you putting in the hard work that the few (and it is a relative few who have reached this level) players who are able to insta heal have and obtaining their skills. Its just that. HARD WORK, and time, a lot of time. If you want a game where the playing field is more level for all then play halo or something. This is an RPG based on your character development. These people didn't just stumble upon 215+ dex they worked damn hard knowing they could achieve it eventually and they did. Power to them. They deserve everything they get. And as has been mentioned many times before they still die, plenty often. It does not make you as invincible as 5 mules sitting in front of you...TheOldMule wrote:As a player we all strive to have the best we can get.But,when the powers above never have any checks and balance you end up with all these god like players.And the rest of the players just look and rub their head.
If the rule is the same for all then it is fair. Everyone knows this exists. Leave it.
With such imba-powered pets i honestly dont understand why there would be any nerfing of ANY aspect of melee.
JW
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
I've been on the shard almost 2 years and had never heard of the benefits of 215 dex in healing. I wish I had known sooner, I am a hard core melee'er. I have 141 dex, I don't have anything relayered, just normal drops, crafted items, quest gear, and a lvl 60 levelable weapon and can still melee any non-boss mob i've faced. I probably could do some bosses, but i get sick of the long fights, so i use pets there. I'm not bragging, I'm saying it's possible to do melee ALOT without 215 dex, and if someone works hard and wants to get even better, there should be some payoff in the end for it.
I was getting pretty tired (and not logging in too often...and not donating lately) but now I know about this, I have a new goal.
But mostly it wouldn't be right to punish those that donated and worked extremely hard to get their gear to this elite level to change the way dex works.
*There are plenty of other things that are still broken and bugged. Perhaps some of those can get fixed first, then perhaps relook at heal/dex benefits if it is still considered a problem.
I was getting pretty tired (and not logging in too often...and not donating lately) but now I know about this, I have a new goal.
But mostly it wouldn't be right to punish those that donated and worked extremely hard to get their gear to this elite level to change the way dex works.
*There are plenty of other things that are still broken and bugged. Perhaps some of those can get fixed first, then perhaps relook at heal/dex benefits if it is still considered a problem.
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
I really think this should be read a few more times so going to quote it.Ruewyn wrote: *There are plenty of other things that are still broken and bugged. Perhaps some of those can get fixed first, then perhaps relook at heal/dex benefits if it is still considered a problem.
Here are some things to consider before everyone jumps on the "Lets change" boat, what does it take to get there? I would also like to point out that recent changes to like the Lord Oak's champ spawn also make it even easier to get 220 then in the past. It spawns twice as fast now basically, so that means even more stat scrolls (The +25 to base dex is important if you want 220). I also think someone should take 2 seconds, write a script that tells you how many of the current players online have 220 or better dex. Then you can start to sample the degree of this and see if it is really a problem or just a select few very active players.
I would also like to point out with the eds some people have invested in equipment, would it be fair to come back and change things after all that hard work perhaps even donations to the shard? With the effort to keep the thread polite, I cannot state what message that sends. What baffles me a bit is that a person who has 5+ imp pets can kill just about anything on the shard is not being questioned while a person with 220 dex who can kill a lot of things (but not close to all) is suddenly over powered?
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
I'm at work, so I'm going to try and make this quick...
I am seeing a lot of hard feelings here. This is a discussion and a poll, I am not saying, "I am going to change it to A, B, or C...make a choice." I am simply striking up a discussion on something I see as an issue we should consider and talk about. I appreciate the amount of time and money it takes to get numerous level 100 items and relayers, and building the perfect player...trust me, I do. However, how would capping the healing rate (even if there is an agreement on 150 hits per second) make your relayers and equipment worthless? I am assuming most players who do relayering get +8 to all stats, +8 to h/s/m, and +6 health/mana and +10 stam regens...at the very least on their relayers. However, I am just making assumptions based on what I would do. Other bonuses come with having high dex, healing isn't the only one.
Also...how would creating an autohealing macro that heals every 1/3 second, make the game challenging? Pair this with people who have 60% health leech whirlwind weapons while having vampire form on.
I am not at all saying you guys who have this or are working toward this, do not deserve it. Believe it or not, I don't walk around all day thinking up new ways to tick you all off. I am, however, interested in balance. I am also trying to keep you guys interested in doing things on this shard...If everything becomes considerably easy to do here for the vets/relayering players, then I think we are in danger of losing some players due to a lack of challenges. This is why I try to add hard things like the Umbris Camp, and the dungeon I am currently working on. Also, I have been recently flirting with ideas on how to keep player power to a reasonable god-like cap, because I would like to see more team play and guild raids in areas.
Keep the opinions coming...and post knowing that this is currently a discussion, nothing more.
+V
I am seeing a lot of hard feelings here. This is a discussion and a poll, I am not saying, "I am going to change it to A, B, or C...make a choice." I am simply striking up a discussion on something I see as an issue we should consider and talk about. I appreciate the amount of time and money it takes to get numerous level 100 items and relayers, and building the perfect player...trust me, I do. However, how would capping the healing rate (even if there is an agreement on 150 hits per second) make your relayers and equipment worthless? I am assuming most players who do relayering get +8 to all stats, +8 to h/s/m, and +6 health/mana and +10 stam regens...at the very least on their relayers. However, I am just making assumptions based on what I would do. Other bonuses come with having high dex, healing isn't the only one.
Also...how would creating an autohealing macro that heals every 1/3 second, make the game challenging? Pair this with people who have 60% health leech whirlwind weapons while having vampire form on.
I am not at all saying you guys who have this or are working toward this, do not deserve it. Believe it or not, I don't walk around all day thinking up new ways to tick you all off. I am, however, interested in balance. I am also trying to keep you guys interested in doing things on this shard...If everything becomes considerably easy to do here for the vets/relayering players, then I think we are in danger of losing some players due to a lack of challenges. This is why I try to add hard things like the Umbris Camp, and the dungeon I am currently working on. Also, I have been recently flirting with ideas on how to keep player power to a reasonable god-like cap, because I would like to see more team play and guild raids in areas.
Keep the opinions coming...and post knowing that this is currently a discussion, nothing more.
+V
-{Excelsior Shard Administrator, and Death Event Extraordinaire}-
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
May the BODs be ever in your favor!
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
Well I'm not 100% for or against the change, but here's my view:
It's a big system and all of the components are not always compatible. There's probably numerous other opportunities like that still in the game, every now and then someone finds one, the word gets out, and then more and more people start to use it. By the time we get to find out, it's already considered that this is how the game works, not a bug. If healing were properly capped to begin with, none of this would happen.
Fact is, this is a bug. If i knew this in the beginning I would have changed it right away but it came under the radar and now many people have already worked towards getting here, and now it's considered that this is how the game works and it is how it should work. We can counteract this with making stronger monsters in the game... but then only that 1% of new content will be hard enough for the uber players. Or it could be made that any monster in felucca has a small chance of one-hit killing a player. But new content is something that takes days and weeks to do. And the one-hit idea might be a bit silly one. It's all just patching up a fundamental issue that can otherwise be solved with adding just one line to the code.
Fact also is that having fun is the main purpose of this game. Well, having 150 beehives in your house and collecting millions each day by clicking Play on razor. It's fun, but it has a negative impact on all of the game.
The main thing why I'm skeptical about this, is that if one can't go head on and attack a tough monster, one will just switch to high-HP pets. And we got plenty of pets already.
I've also been considering, in the event that this gets changed, it will be possible to get back the ED that you used on that +25 individual dex cap, and on one relayer for an item with let's say more than +10 dex bonus, if that relayer has been made in the last few months.
Anyway, for now just to get a general perspective.
And the technicalities... this is a combination of [bandself, Razor, and the fact it's possible to get such high dex. Take any of these out of the equation and it wouldn't be possible or just much slower.
Regular healing with Razor: 1. Doubleclick bandage, wait for target; 2. request travels from player to server in 0.1 seconds; 3. server makes a target and sends it back to client; 4. target travels 0.1 seconds to client; 5. you click what you want to heal; 6. data again travels 0.1 seconds from client to server; 7. server heals it.
So here we have 3 delays of 0.1 seconds, let's say this could even be 0.3 second on a slower connection... making the whole process take 0.3-1.0 seconds.
Razor with bandself: 1. say [bandself; 2. request travels from player to server in 0.1 seconds; 3. server heals it.
And this process takes about a third of the one above.
Both these cases considered for very high dex where there is no delay in healing.
It's a big system and all of the components are not always compatible. There's probably numerous other opportunities like that still in the game, every now and then someone finds one, the word gets out, and then more and more people start to use it. By the time we get to find out, it's already considered that this is how the game works, not a bug. If healing were properly capped to begin with, none of this would happen.
Fact is, this is a bug. If i knew this in the beginning I would have changed it right away but it came under the radar and now many people have already worked towards getting here, and now it's considered that this is how the game works and it is how it should work. We can counteract this with making stronger monsters in the game... but then only that 1% of new content will be hard enough for the uber players. Or it could be made that any monster in felucca has a small chance of one-hit killing a player. But new content is something that takes days and weeks to do. And the one-hit idea might be a bit silly one. It's all just patching up a fundamental issue that can otherwise be solved with adding just one line to the code.
Fact also is that having fun is the main purpose of this game. Well, having 150 beehives in your house and collecting millions each day by clicking Play on razor. It's fun, but it has a negative impact on all of the game.
The main thing why I'm skeptical about this, is that if one can't go head on and attack a tough monster, one will just switch to high-HP pets. And we got plenty of pets already.
I've also been considering, in the event that this gets changed, it will be possible to get back the ED that you used on that +25 individual dex cap, and on one relayer for an item with let's say more than +10 dex bonus, if that relayer has been made in the last few months.
Anyway, for now just to get a general perspective.
And the technicalities... this is a combination of [bandself, Razor, and the fact it's possible to get such high dex. Take any of these out of the equation and it wouldn't be possible or just much slower.
Regular healing with Razor: 1. Doubleclick bandage, wait for target; 2. request travels from player to server in 0.1 seconds; 3. server makes a target and sends it back to client; 4. target travels 0.1 seconds to client; 5. you click what you want to heal; 6. data again travels 0.1 seconds from client to server; 7. server heals it.
So here we have 3 delays of 0.1 seconds, let's say this could even be 0.3 second on a slower connection... making the whole process take 0.3-1.0 seconds.
Razor with bandself: 1. say [bandself; 2. request travels from player to server in 0.1 seconds; 3. server heals it.
And this process takes about a third of the one above.
Both these cases considered for very high dex where there is no delay in healing.
+Colibri, Administrator of UO Excelsior Shard
Don't know what the purpose of your life is? Well then make something up!
(Old Colibrian proverb)
Don't know what the purpose of your life is? Well then make something up!

(Old Colibrian proverb)
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
Umbris camp doesn't care if you're a demi-god or not. It can be a .. humbling .. experience+Veritas wrote: Also...how would creating an autohealing macro that heals every 1/3 second, make the game challenging?

For me there's 2 ways to get out: running for my life or as a ghost

Off topic: Would be great to have a set of these kind of camps and have a warrior's GoC set

EDIT:
+Coli posted while I was writing this, my razor macro heals every 0.5 seconds, 1.0 seconds is still
pretty much immortality. I remember only one time when I needed more, it was at the triple-champ
event when the harrower tentacle-things popped. It was a huge rate of dmg coming in and I was reaally
burning up those bandaids.
Also, I believe that there's a chance of getting "Your fingers slip" if you get enough dmg while using
bandages. So, out of the possible nerfs, I'd say capping the max heal amount per sec is the best choice.
You'd have healing limited, but insta-bandaids would still be something to go for since you will hardly
ever fail healing due to incoming damage.
Also, I still think the bigger balance issue is imprisoned pets. Sure I stay alive at slaarion, but the imp
guy kills him 5 times faster with no danger to himself.
Failure is not an option, it's a standard.
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
Hello
I agree with a lot of points already made, I'm all for balance.But I think its not good to just look at this area without others which maybe considered overpowered too, like Jack has shown pets play a much bigger % than just people with high dex, people being able to have 10slots (I think?) is quite a huge advantage when killing things also I think bios dex is also high so they bandage quite fast too plus some having a healing special also helps. The shard also has an unlimited skill cap with combat skills able to reach 130, which can only help kill things easily even more so... But this is part of being a custom shard if nerfing all aspects of it, it may as well just be an osi clone which is not what I play here for, I enjoy all the custom things from pets to making cool suits with relayers and like people have said its pvm so not hurting anyone. I think the best way to go is altering the content, just like umbra camp gave a nice challenge and also how champ's hp got raised to match the power of pets not being able to kill them in 10seconds flat, changes like that I'd rather see...maybe a fel 2.0? heheh Also as nelapsi has said there are a few fixes and bugs that probably should be more concerned about.
Anyway just my thoughts, forgive me if its hard to read,I havent posted on a forum in many years lol
cheers Siamo
Edit: Well just read +coli post and if it is a bug and supposed to have had a cap to begin with then not sure why we are having a poll on the matter
I never knew it was supposed to have had a cap and I'm sure a lot of other people didnt either.
I agree with a lot of points already made, I'm all for balance.But I think its not good to just look at this area without others which maybe considered overpowered too, like Jack has shown pets play a much bigger % than just people with high dex, people being able to have 10slots (I think?) is quite a huge advantage when killing things also I think bios dex is also high so they bandage quite fast too plus some having a healing special also helps. The shard also has an unlimited skill cap with combat skills able to reach 130, which can only help kill things easily even more so... But this is part of being a custom shard if nerfing all aspects of it, it may as well just be an osi clone which is not what I play here for, I enjoy all the custom things from pets to making cool suits with relayers and like people have said its pvm so not hurting anyone. I think the best way to go is altering the content, just like umbra camp gave a nice challenge and also how champ's hp got raised to match the power of pets not being able to kill them in 10seconds flat, changes like that I'd rather see...maybe a fel 2.0? heheh Also as nelapsi has said there are a few fixes and bugs that probably should be more concerned about.
Anyway just my thoughts, forgive me if its hard to read,I havent posted on a forum in many years lol
cheers Siamo
Edit: Well just read +coli post and if it is a bug and supposed to have had a cap to begin with then not sure why we are having a poll on the matter

Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
The idea of a small refund or sorry we missed this doesn't hold much water with me since this has been this way on Ex since I came here and no major system changes to explain this as a "new problem".
How about this as a solution (Should work for all I think)
1. All relayered items are keyed to an account (I know this will not sit well with many but this is critical for a system to correct itself over time, accept the fact you invested your time and effort and it is yours and yours only to enjoy)
2. All current relayered items are grandfathered (Create a property to handle this, easy boolean or int )
3. Current base stat caps remain in place
4. New cap to how many points that can be added per type, UO (unsure about runuo) has this I think where you can only gain a maximum of points from magic items and from artifacts. For here we may need to either add a new category to handle relayered weapons or simply have them add to one of the other two categories used.
Options
Progressive points in weapon leveling:
Point Cost needs to increase the higher the bonus you are trying to buy. This is used all across gaming as a natural way to balance high powered weapons vs jack of all trade weapons. The current system Ex uses is, All high power - All the time.
Hold on weapon relayers:
If you go with this, I would put a current freeze on weapon relayers until the above system is in place. This will stop the holiday shopping period as I would call it. Where players rush to do things before it is put in place. Everything that is as now, will remain until things can move forward. You can still level weapons and such, just no relayering. If you want to still allow some relayers, cannot have a stat bonus or modifier on the weapon.
Now the reason for this is you fix the system now and allow time to heal the rest. Lets be honest, if none of you noticed this "problem" until now then time healing it isn't really a big issue. If you notice in my solution, no one gets the feeling of being screwed over or wasted their time, donations or resources and Ex starts working itself to a balanced system.
How about this as a solution (Should work for all I think)
1. All relayered items are keyed to an account (I know this will not sit well with many but this is critical for a system to correct itself over time, accept the fact you invested your time and effort and it is yours and yours only to enjoy)
2. All current relayered items are grandfathered (Create a property to handle this, easy boolean or int )
3. Current base stat caps remain in place
4. New cap to how many points that can be added per type, UO (unsure about runuo) has this I think where you can only gain a maximum of points from magic items and from artifacts. For here we may need to either add a new category to handle relayered weapons or simply have them add to one of the other two categories used.
Options
Progressive points in weapon leveling:
Point Cost needs to increase the higher the bonus you are trying to buy. This is used all across gaming as a natural way to balance high powered weapons vs jack of all trade weapons. The current system Ex uses is, All high power - All the time.
Hold on weapon relayers:
If you go with this, I would put a current freeze on weapon relayers until the above system is in place. This will stop the holiday shopping period as I would call it. Where players rush to do things before it is put in place. Everything that is as now, will remain until things can move forward. You can still level weapons and such, just no relayering. If you want to still allow some relayers, cannot have a stat bonus or modifier on the weapon.
Now the reason for this is you fix the system now and allow time to heal the rest. Lets be honest, if none of you noticed this "problem" until now then time healing it isn't really a big issue. If you notice in my solution, no one gets the feeling of being screwed over or wasted their time, donations or resources and Ex starts working itself to a balanced system.
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
Just quoting myself for a possible solution to this. It would:Penny wrote: So, out of the possible nerfs, I'd say capping the max heal amount per sec is the best choice.
You'd have healing limited, but insta-bandaids would still be something to go for since you will hardly
ever fail healing due to incoming damage.
- Limit the healing
- Still make "insta-heals" worthwhile
Kind of a compromise. (I still want to point out that pets are far more powerful than soloing.)
Failure is not an option, it's a standard.
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
I think I would have to see that system in place before being able to say anything but not because I don't understand what you are saying but more because I never seen the results +V is talking about. Who knows, maybe I just do not have my scripts spinning that fast.Penny wrote:Penny wrote: Just quoting myself for a possible solution to this. It would:
- Limit the healing
- Still make "insta-heals" worthwhile
Kind of a compromise. (I still want to point out that pets are far more powerful than soloing.)
I think I am a little bent on this because not to long ago a staff member said no to something based being fair and ethics, which I respected and still do respect the decision made. Now, it seems fair has been tossed out the window just for the sake of what someone considers fun. Someone explain to me how healing with 220 dex equates to 5+ imp pets, humorously I can imagine some pet owner complaining to staff that people solo monsters were taking to long at a spawn and it needs to be fixed. (Laugh but I actually had a player complain to me at Lady Mel because I didn't use pets)
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
Before i start, i want to add a general disclaimer, that what I say is to be taken lightly, i speak bluntly not negatively, i will poke at you a bit V, but you are kind of spear heading this movement to nerf me(And others like me) 
Pretty much every point I would've noted has already been noted for me, except this;
Veritas' Basic premis for this isn't systematic(its Overpowered, etc), it is his personal opinion on what is and is not fun.
So he's basically telling his player base what we should think is fun and that isn't very fair.
there are elements of this shard that make it "real time" and by that I mean, its harder, and more realistic than just having everything handed to you, you have to work your butt off for some of the nicer things.
but it also has a few elements of a "fun server" which is the type of private game server where you gain droves of xp for each quest, get weapons and armor handed out to you and you are basically given everything.
Excelsior is a semi-perfect balance of the two, which is why i like it so much, not to mention how overly professional the staff are which is why i play here, which is why i donate. being extra powerful via ED is a nice incentive, but that isn't even necessary if you make enough money in game and buy ED from others who donate. If you work hard enough, you can become nearly immortal. who honestly likes to die? I like challenging myself, personally, by seeing how many things I can pull, i like to run through umbris and pull 20 mobs just to see if i will survive, sometimes I don't, sometimes I do. I -find- ways to make it fun for me, UO was never intended to be an overly group oriented game. especially not on this server/shard, where its all PVM and there is no skill cap, some players might require friends for champ spawns, or doom gauntlet, but that still isn't very technicall, kill kill kill kill. its the same thing, you just need a friend for it, well some do.
I don't think it's very fun that once i spend my points on my leveled weapon that I don't get to 'respec' it at a later date, or if i make a mistake when spending points, then im screwed
I don't think its very fun that titans hammers are so painfully rare.
i will complain about these things to my close friends in game, but i have not started a campaign to make a change, and even if i did, it would be ignored, or written off.
course when I think about these things from a different perspective, it doesn't bother me so much. Titans hammers being as rare as they are is kind of fun at the same time, it makes owning one feel like its worth it. but uhh >_> I can't really think of any way not being able to respec is fun, WoW has spoiled me there, i guess
so thats about it
dont read to much hate into it, cuz i swear i dont mean it

Pretty much every point I would've noted has already been noted for me, except this;
Veritas' Basic premis for this isn't systematic(its Overpowered, etc), it is his personal opinion on what is and is not fun.
So he's basically telling his player base what we should think is fun and that isn't very fair.
there are elements of this shard that make it "real time" and by that I mean, its harder, and more realistic than just having everything handed to you, you have to work your butt off for some of the nicer things.
but it also has a few elements of a "fun server" which is the type of private game server where you gain droves of xp for each quest, get weapons and armor handed out to you and you are basically given everything.
Excelsior is a semi-perfect balance of the two, which is why i like it so much, not to mention how overly professional the staff are which is why i play here, which is why i donate. being extra powerful via ED is a nice incentive, but that isn't even necessary if you make enough money in game and buy ED from others who donate. If you work hard enough, you can become nearly immortal. who honestly likes to die? I like challenging myself, personally, by seeing how many things I can pull, i like to run through umbris and pull 20 mobs just to see if i will survive, sometimes I don't, sometimes I do. I -find- ways to make it fun for me, UO was never intended to be an overly group oriented game. especially not on this server/shard, where its all PVM and there is no skill cap, some players might require friends for champ spawns, or doom gauntlet, but that still isn't very technicall, kill kill kill kill. its the same thing, you just need a friend for it, well some do.
I don't think it's very fun that once i spend my points on my leveled weapon that I don't get to 'respec' it at a later date, or if i make a mistake when spending points, then im screwed
I don't think its very fun that titans hammers are so painfully rare.
i will complain about these things to my close friends in game, but i have not started a campaign to make a change, and even if i did, it would be ignored, or written off.
course when I think about these things from a different perspective, it doesn't bother me so much. Titans hammers being as rare as they are is kind of fun at the same time, it makes owning one feel like its worth it. but uhh >_> I can't really think of any way not being able to respec is fun, WoW has spoiled me there, i guess

so thats about it
dont read to much hate into it, cuz i swear i dont mean it


NOBODY GETS OUT OF LIFE ALIVE, LIVE, LAUGH, LOVE, DO IT FOR TEH LULZ!
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
I go without pets because it's fun. Because it's a long path to walk, and there's always
"a bigger fish". And if there's not a bigger fish, I'll try two big fishes, three. I like challenges,
but not when it's a non-stop challenge from start to end of a dungeon.
I don't do it because it gives me an unfair advantage at killing mobs, I'd use imp pets for that.
(Yes, again the imp pets
)
"a bigger fish". And if there's not a bigger fish, I'll try two big fishes, three. I like challenges,
but not when it's a non-stop challenge from start to end of a dungeon.
I don't do it because it gives me an unfair advantage at killing mobs, I'd use imp pets for that.
(Yes, again the imp pets

Failure is not an option, it's a standard.
Re: Healing + Dex Discussion
I vote to keep it as is. I have 120healing and 207 Dex so I put a bandage on every 1 second. I can tell you that it is still very easy to die out there like that. Like when you are fighting more than one monster. Okay, you won't die in easy dungeons, but in a mage quest dungeon death is just a few wrong moves away.
Even if i use Angelic Form, I still need a .4 second pause in order for razor to macro it properly. Maybe that is something I'm doing wrong in setting the macro, but I can't get a 0 sec pause to work.
Even if i use Angelic Form, I still need a .4 second pause in order for razor to macro it properly. Maybe that is something I'm doing wrong in setting the macro, but I can't get a 0 sec pause to work.