I suggest a few changes to the breeding system that would solve the eventuality of maxed pets beeing sold everywhere for minimal amounts of money. There are 3 possible changes to this, some may be implemented, some may not.
Please vote in the poll above, but to get a clear view of which ones should be implemented, please vote on each by replying with a message such as:
1. Yes/No
2. Yes/No
3. Yes/No
Comments and suggestions are welcome.
1. If you would buy a shrunken pet, or if a pet was transfered to you, the unshrinking/transfer would not succeed if your taming wasn't high enough for that generation of the pet. The forumla would be something like:
Taming needed = 94 + (Gen-1)*3
g1=94, g2=97, g3=100, ... , g9=118
Which means that for a gen4 pet you would already need a 105 animal taming scroll.
2. Pets of certain generations would not be transferable at all. For example, you could not use a bought gen8; you would have to buy a gen7 and breed it to get a gen8.
3. a. Downbreeding solution 1. Pets would not be one gen higher as their parents, instead, their generation would be calculated by the average of both parents. This would make downbreeding alot harder:
g1+g10 = 5.5 = g6; g10+g2 = g6
3. b. Downbreeding solution 2. Pets would be limited by what they can breed with - you could only breed two generations that are close, for example within 4 generations of eachother. This would make it harder, but still easyer than the average method. For example, the generations from the examples in 3.a. couldn't breed, but you could do:
g5+g9 => one g6 and one g10, you take the g6 with a g2:
g6+g2=> one g7 and one g3
And just my opinion of the current situation: at the moment, i think the pets are right where they should be. Strong pets are required for the new dungeons. But the current system allows anyone that buys a pet that is capable of breeding, to make an army of pets, which can then be sold at low prices. Eventually, anyone that has played here for a week will have maxed pets. I've seen that happen on a shard... Well actually, all shards that have this breeding system, eventually get this way.
O and please note, altho there are just a few players that actually do the breeding, i'm not pointing any fingers. If the system allows it, then it's probably legal. And i've stated already that this is legal. It could have been any other player in the past or the future that would decide to breed for the market. So, there's nothing wrong with individuals or the society, it's just a flaw of the system.
(That's why i'm very careful when adding new stuff... also one of the reasons we don't have more custom features ... also the reason we have balanced loot, rewards, and with it, all of the economy)
Breeding changes draft
Breeding changes draft
+Colibri, Administrator of UO Excelsior Shard
Don't know what the purpose of your life is? Well then make something up!
(Old Colibrian proverb)
Don't know what the purpose of your life is? Well then make something up!
(Old Colibrian proverb)
1: How does this work with my higher gen pets?
2: Not really
3a,b: No, No
Breeding is quite expensive so I cant imagine the world being spamned with cheap high end pets.
I do have seen some cheaper pets, but they were either low lvl sterile or meant to help breeders on their way.
People with really high end packs worked hard for them or simply have payed a good sum of money.(either that or the salesman was very generous of spirit).
Idea 1 sounds good to me, but I wonder how this formula will work with my gen20 pet.
taken that you will find a solution to that problem,
I vote for Idea 1
-Thallogh
2: Not really
3a,b: No, No
Breeding is quite expensive so I cant imagine the world being spamned with cheap high end pets.
I do have seen some cheaper pets, but they were either low lvl sterile or meant to help breeders on their way.
People with really high end packs worked hard for them or simply have payed a good sum of money.(either that or the salesman was very generous of spirit).
Idea 1 sounds good to me, but I wonder how this formula will work with my gen20 pet.
taken that you will find a solution to that problem,
I vote for Idea 1
-Thallogh
Characters: Thallogh, George, Elisabeth
Thank you for your opinion.
If it's already your pet, the rule at point 1 wouldnt matter to you. The only thing you couldn't do is sell this pet to someone else. Or well, you could sell it, but the buyer wouldnt be able to unshrink it.
If it's already your pet, the rule at point 1 wouldnt matter to you. The only thing you couldn't do is sell this pet to someone else. Or well, you could sell it, but the buyer wouldnt be able to unshrink it.
+Colibri, Administrator of UO Excelsior Shard
Don't know what the purpose of your life is? Well then make something up!
(Old Colibrian proverb)
Don't know what the purpose of your life is? Well then make something up!
(Old Colibrian proverb)
Personally, I vote no on all accounts. I don't understand where the concern for the market being flooded with over powered, cheap pets is coming from. Breeding is already expensive. Pets have a limited number of times they can mate (if they can at all). I for one don't have the time to "live" online to do the breeding, so my only option is to buy them. Or I can just not be able to go to champs, new dungeons, or many other places. If the attempt is to get people to stop using pets so much, and dexers more... then come up with some uber armor that takes pet slots or something. I don't get where there is a thought that top of the line pets are going to be selling dirt cheap. Most of what I have seen has been selling around 100g per HP. So a 1k HP ostie goes for around 100k gold. So around half a mil for a set. Let them die one time and their resists are down to 72 (even though stat loss, as described by the webpage is supposed to be "3. The pet can suffer a 5% stat lose (strength, intelligence, dexterity).") and your pet is now pretty much worthless unless you want to spend tons of money on regs, and hours farming ointments to get them back up to what they were at.
So, as I said, my vote is no on all accounts
So, as I said, my vote is no on all accounts
Thank you for your opinion too Digger, very well argumented.
I love the idea of an uber weapon taking up pet slots... i'm thinking that might be implemented someday...
But just a FYI, the thing where you can breed past gen10 (if you initiate the breeding with another pet) is considered a bug, altho it's fine if you use it. But it will be disabled shortly.
With the current votes and replies I doubt it will get changed, but still, let's give it a few more days to get a better picture.
I love the idea of an uber weapon taking up pet slots... i'm thinking that might be implemented someday...
But just a FYI, the thing where you can breed past gen10 (if you initiate the breeding with another pet) is considered a bug, altho it's fine if you use it. But it will be disabled shortly.
With the current votes and replies I doubt it will get changed, but still, let's give it a few more days to get a better picture.
+Colibri, Administrator of UO Excelsior Shard
Don't know what the purpose of your life is? Well then make something up!
(Old Colibrian proverb)
Don't know what the purpose of your life is? Well then make something up!
(Old Colibrian proverb)
I don't really have a problem with limiting pets somehow, specifically that you have to have a certain amount of taming to use a certain generation. That one sounds best to me, to be honest, but it would have to be adjusted for certain pets I think.
Cu Sidhe, for instance, already take 101.1 Lore and Taming just to have one.
As for breeding them, I don't really see where it takes forever to breed. 15 minutes to level each pet, if that, and then the two minutes that it takes to mate them at the NPC. After that you have to wait days before you have to do anything else. Of course, if you're doing them in massive amounts, that's a different story.
Cu Sidhe, for instance, already take 101.1 Lore and Taming just to have one.
As for breeding them, I don't really see where it takes forever to breed. 15 minutes to level each pet, if that, and then the two minutes that it takes to mate them at the NPC. After that you have to wait days before you have to do anything else. Of course, if you're doing them in massive amounts, that's a different story.
Since the subject is on "maxed pets". could you please explain and by all means teach us how you got to maxed pets in a short amount of time?Neamh wrote:I don't really see where it takes forever to breed.
you are talking about one single breed. of which it takes tons to finally reach 1 maxed one.
And of course this is part of the fun but don't make it sound like its all done overnight.
-Thall
Characters: Thallogh, George, Elisabeth
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Highroller
- Legendary Scribe
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- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:32 am
- Location: South Carolina USA
Breeding
I vote no on all. And yes I do breed a lot of pets. (lol) This shard already has more limitations on breeding that any other I have seen actually. With each pet limited to breeding 0 to 4 times and the pack instinct pets capped with low strength and dex its hard enough now. And I still think the genders are not split evenly on babies. I still get a lot more males than females on ostards and mostly females on swamp dragons. If anything I think you need to get rid of the 5% chance of breeding a sterile pet. Seems like I always get the gender I need the most as a sterile. I once got 7 male ostards and 1 female and the one female was born sterile. Either there is still a bug in the gender chance or I am constantly having horrible luck. (lol) When you consider the cost of breeding if you factor in the cost of gender change deeds it goes WAY up. The 12,000 or so gold to claim a pair of ostards is not much compared to the 75,000 to 125,000 the gender change deed costs to get the parents where they can breed in the first place. (based on 3 to 5 per token)
Ack! Natural Sunlight. I must flee to my coffin!!!
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OldManAlewar
- Legendary Scribe
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:42 pm
weapons can already be ubered with a lvl deed.Colibri [Admin] wrote:Thank you for your opinion too Digger, very well argumented.
I love the idea of an uber weapon taking up pet slots... i'm thinking that might be implemented someday...
But just a FYI, the thing where you can breed past gen10 (if you initiate the breeding with another pet) is considered a bug, altho it's fine if you use it. But it will be disabled shortly.
With the current votes and replies I doubt it will get changed, but still, let's give it a few more days to get a better picture.
perhps ARMOR lvl deeds (that take a pet slot)
The main problem is the one not seen by the avg non breeder atm , Currently if i wanted to, in 3 weeks i could have approx 3000 Maxed ozzies on the market. I can over double that bi weekly until i run out of space .
Here is the problem,
Gen 10 near max can down breed with a gen 1 , resulting in 1 500 hp gen 2 A 500 hp gen 2 can turn max all day long with very very little effort.
Prior to finding this out it took me 3 months of hard work and trouble to get "near maxed" and charging high dollars was the result of the hard work.
Now that i know i can down breed to the gen 2 marker, It makes "max" pets about as easy to get as bulk regs. and to give you an idea where IM personally sitting on ozzies and what it will do to the markt
Ive got 4 seperate chest lines set and operating, ive got 150 gen 7's rdy for 8 which means i will have 300 gen 8's ready for 9 and 600 gen 10's rdy for down breed, I will carry only the 600 down to 2 because the second one turns a gen 11 and will get tossed. So starting with 600 gen 2's (500 hps) ill turn 1200 gen 3's , 2400 gen 4's, 4800 gen 5's, 9600 gen 6's, 19200 gen 7's
KEEP IN MIND , this is based on the avg of each pet getting 2 total breeds some get 1 some get 2 some 3 and some 4 breeds (avg seems to be 2 breeds when spread out over time)
Thats just ONE chest line ive 4 of them rdy (this is not taking into account the 5% chance of being a non breeder but even taking that into account you can see where this is headed very very fast.
even if we shut off the ability to buy past gen 7 ive got maxed prior to that.
Personally i Mainly vote to just shut off the down breeding or back breeding, I can still get plenty of pets ready for the market as can anyone , but less of them even close to max
bottom line is .. in 3 months ive only gotten close to a full pet
in 3 weeks a certain person bought 1 (1 !!) pet and turned it into a line of maxed that can just keep spawning off maxes over and over.
basicly anyone atm that has a few gen 10 pets with the ability to breed can do this formula, will use 4 pets for example. 4(10's) x 4(1's) makes 4 2's with 500+ hps (breed those 4 for 8 gen 3) (breed those 8 for 16 gen 4's) (breed those 16 for 32 gen 5') (breed those 32 for 64 gen 6's) (breed those 64 for 128 gen 7's) .... you get the idea ... now at gen 10 you will have using simple numbers and not confusing with 1 breeders vs 4 breeders .. approx 1024 gen 10's ... even if that person uses 100 and sells 500 he/she still has 400 to rinse and repeat with, now we are talking about 400 starters instead of 4 starters at gen 2
this could spiral out of control very very quickly (this goes towards diggers post of whats wrong with having strong pets) nothing is wrong with it, but if even 5 people followed this formula, we are looking an OVERWHELMING amount of ozzies flooding into the market. thats like taking that new mage armor and allowing it to spawn on any tram crit in the game at a 50% drop ratio, Why even bother with the quest or the fun factor of working towards getting it. same principle with this, Anyone can do the LEG work of getting MAXED pets, but thats where it should be left is Leg work, not mass rebreeding to roll out stupid amounts of pets into the market. Digger, one last thing towards your post, As it is (take away the down breed) many ozzies will still be available for all play styles and all availabilities, this would just limit it down on being hundreds in the market compared to millions (depending on the # of breeders in both scenarios, IE downbreeding scenario or normal gen 1 up breeding scenario) in the market if you follow what im saying
This is just my opinion of course but wanted all to know the spinoff and where the system is actually sitting at currently since not all people know the down breed ( i didnt until recently) nor the full breed process as its hard coded atm.
hope that helps some with the decision making process
safe journeys
Ka
Here is the problem,
Gen 10 near max can down breed with a gen 1 , resulting in 1 500 hp gen 2 A 500 hp gen 2 can turn max all day long with very very little effort.
Prior to finding this out it took me 3 months of hard work and trouble to get "near maxed" and charging high dollars was the result of the hard work.
Now that i know i can down breed to the gen 2 marker, It makes "max" pets about as easy to get as bulk regs. and to give you an idea where IM personally sitting on ozzies and what it will do to the markt
Ive got 4 seperate chest lines set and operating, ive got 150 gen 7's rdy for 8 which means i will have 300 gen 8's ready for 9 and 600 gen 10's rdy for down breed, I will carry only the 600 down to 2 because the second one turns a gen 11 and will get tossed. So starting with 600 gen 2's (500 hps) ill turn 1200 gen 3's , 2400 gen 4's, 4800 gen 5's, 9600 gen 6's, 19200 gen 7's
KEEP IN MIND , this is based on the avg of each pet getting 2 total breeds some get 1 some get 2 some 3 and some 4 breeds (avg seems to be 2 breeds when spread out over time)
Thats just ONE chest line ive 4 of them rdy (this is not taking into account the 5% chance of being a non breeder but even taking that into account you can see where this is headed very very fast.
even if we shut off the ability to buy past gen 7 ive got maxed prior to that.
Personally i Mainly vote to just shut off the down breeding or back breeding, I can still get plenty of pets ready for the market as can anyone , but less of them even close to max
bottom line is .. in 3 months ive only gotten close to a full pet
in 3 weeks a certain person bought 1 (1 !!) pet and turned it into a line of maxed that can just keep spawning off maxes over and over.
basicly anyone atm that has a few gen 10 pets with the ability to breed can do this formula, will use 4 pets for example. 4(10's) x 4(1's) makes 4 2's with 500+ hps (breed those 4 for 8 gen 3) (breed those 8 for 16 gen 4's) (breed those 16 for 32 gen 5') (breed those 32 for 64 gen 6's) (breed those 64 for 128 gen 7's) .... you get the idea ... now at gen 10 you will have using simple numbers and not confusing with 1 breeders vs 4 breeders .. approx 1024 gen 10's ... even if that person uses 100 and sells 500 he/she still has 400 to rinse and repeat with, now we are talking about 400 starters instead of 4 starters at gen 2
this could spiral out of control very very quickly (this goes towards diggers post of whats wrong with having strong pets) nothing is wrong with it, but if even 5 people followed this formula, we are looking an OVERWHELMING amount of ozzies flooding into the market. thats like taking that new mage armor and allowing it to spawn on any tram crit in the game at a 50% drop ratio, Why even bother with the quest or the fun factor of working towards getting it. same principle with this, Anyone can do the LEG work of getting MAXED pets, but thats where it should be left is Leg work, not mass rebreeding to roll out stupid amounts of pets into the market. Digger, one last thing towards your post, As it is (take away the down breed) many ozzies will still be available for all play styles and all availabilities, this would just limit it down on being hundreds in the market compared to millions (depending on the # of breeders in both scenarios, IE downbreeding scenario or normal gen 1 up breeding scenario) in the market if you follow what im saying
This is just my opinion of course but wanted all to know the spinoff and where the system is actually sitting at currently since not all people know the down breed ( i didnt until recently) nor the full breed process as its hard coded atm.
hope that helps some with the decision making process
safe journeys
Ka
I am completely opposed to depleting the ability to down breed..
what is not realized is that: it takes a lot of effort to get a very well rounded high level pet in the first place.. lots of mating delay time/money.. so, if you can get even 1 to a high level that is decent its as if you deserve the right to breed it how you like..
I am not quite sure why this even became an issue, as this has been available for a long time...?
I have known about it since... well, my first set of mules, and it is part of the fun of breeding.. I enjoy it, but do not ever plan on "flooding the market" with pets.. i mean, i dont have enough time to just sit at the computer and breed for hours and hours.. and also, i wouldnt personally buy pets from anyone else, b/c i enjoy the accomplishment of breeding my own.. it is a great sigh of joy by the time you are done breeding and you have something wonderful to show for it...
so again, this has been around forever and ever, and I dont consider if a bug, but just a tactical way of breeding.. too many times tactics is confused with "exploit" and this is one of my biggest annoyances.. You have to think and plan and strategize to breed, just as you have to think and plan how to overcome a monster in game.. it's called tactics....
So,
Point 3: heck no
what is not realized is that: it takes a lot of effort to get a very well rounded high level pet in the first place.. lots of mating delay time/money.. so, if you can get even 1 to a high level that is decent its as if you deserve the right to breed it how you like..
I am not quite sure why this even became an issue, as this has been available for a long time...?
I have known about it since... well, my first set of mules, and it is part of the fun of breeding.. I enjoy it, but do not ever plan on "flooding the market" with pets.. i mean, i dont have enough time to just sit at the computer and breed for hours and hours.. and also, i wouldnt personally buy pets from anyone else, b/c i enjoy the accomplishment of breeding my own.. it is a great sigh of joy by the time you are done breeding and you have something wonderful to show for it...
so again, this has been around forever and ever, and I dont consider if a bug, but just a tactical way of breeding.. too many times tactics is confused with "exploit" and this is one of my biggest annoyances.. You have to think and plan and strategize to breed, just as you have to think and plan how to overcome a monster in game.. it's called tactics....
So,
Point 3: heck no
Llexa ,
I completely agree with you !
However if it worked that YOUR pets Were the only ones that were back breedable, they are .. your pets and should be able to be bred however you see fit since as you put it, It was a result of YOUR hard work.
The Problem come in when its YOUR pets that someone else back breeds to take a shortcut .. then floods the market in a very short time frame.
I like the ability that all can have nice pets without having to put alot of time in as not all people have that free time to even do it, but is it fair that we have to not even sell pets because we are afraid someone will buy up a pet (gen 9 or 10) that came from your original "hard work" and then turns out an ungodly amount of pets with LESS time and LESS money than you had to put into it?
The exploit or bug isnt within your personal breed line, the bug comes from others taking advantage of the breed line you worked on.
As far as tactics go, your right on point, To get a maxed from scratch takes alot of thinking ahead , you got to mate the right 2 pets from the begining to the end. Tactics gets yanked to the side when a person buys a random gen 10 and mates with a random gen 1 , You have about a 50% chance or higher (have tested fully) of getting a maxed pet without even thinking about it, in fact some of mine will be maxed at gen 7 .. with no tactics what so ever.
basicly i agree with you 100% .. if you keep your pets to yourself and only use for personal use. past that, its insane to think of all the people that can take the short cut and nearly "exploit" (using it lightly since its not been defined as one) the breed system as is.
Right now i cant even sell a pet unless it rolls a non breed, yet i worked my butt off so that people ready for that next level of fun yet dont have time to do thier own breeding can buy the pets and enjoy the next portion of the game, IE fel dungeons, champs, new quests, what have you.
IF i had known as you did about the bug, exploit, breed design what have you, I wouldnt of even bothered selling them and i assure you i would of kept all my pets to myself. I really fealt i was doing a service to the avg player that didnt have time to do it themselves. I feel really really bad about doing so now though and wish i would of just kept them to myself.
safe journeys,
Ka
I completely agree with you !
However if it worked that YOUR pets Were the only ones that were back breedable, they are .. your pets and should be able to be bred however you see fit since as you put it, It was a result of YOUR hard work.
The Problem come in when its YOUR pets that someone else back breeds to take a shortcut .. then floods the market in a very short time frame.
I like the ability that all can have nice pets without having to put alot of time in as not all people have that free time to even do it, but is it fair that we have to not even sell pets because we are afraid someone will buy up a pet (gen 9 or 10) that came from your original "hard work" and then turns out an ungodly amount of pets with LESS time and LESS money than you had to put into it?
The exploit or bug isnt within your personal breed line, the bug comes from others taking advantage of the breed line you worked on.
As far as tactics go, your right on point, To get a maxed from scratch takes alot of thinking ahead , you got to mate the right 2 pets from the begining to the end. Tactics gets yanked to the side when a person buys a random gen 10 and mates with a random gen 1 , You have about a 50% chance or higher (have tested fully) of getting a maxed pet without even thinking about it, in fact some of mine will be maxed at gen 7 .. with no tactics what so ever.
basicly i agree with you 100% .. if you keep your pets to yourself and only use for personal use. past that, its insane to think of all the people that can take the short cut and nearly "exploit" (using it lightly since its not been defined as one) the breed system as is.
Right now i cant even sell a pet unless it rolls a non breed, yet i worked my butt off so that people ready for that next level of fun yet dont have time to do thier own breeding can buy the pets and enjoy the next portion of the game, IE fel dungeons, champs, new quests, what have you.
IF i had known as you did about the bug, exploit, breed design what have you, I wouldnt of even bothered selling them and i assure you i would of kept all my pets to myself. I really fealt i was doing a service to the avg player that didnt have time to do it themselves. I feel really really bad about doing so now though and wish i would of just kept them to myself.
safe journeys,
Ka