Changes to the Training Room

[+Veritas]

I would like to comment on the original intent of the training dirks. They serve two purposes: 1) Provide a long lasting weapon that cab be kept equipt over night for those who do not have the means to make a script that equipts a new one upon a breaking weapon, and 2) Provide a free route for young players to train archery to 75 without the use of arrows. +V

[+Nyx]

Honestly, I don't see how necessary further training rooms/skill allowances would be.

I was a long-time player on OSI as well as on other free shards before landing on Excelsior. Excelsior is already by far the easiest shard to get skills to 120. For example, animal taming on osi took months - I'm not joking. Months of hours and hours of grinding every single day to get to 100. Not even to 120! Here on Excelsior, it takes a couple days and that's if you are doing it manually and not using your skill ball on that. We are also the easiest to get geared up enough to be viable in most of the mid-level content. We have the most helpful playerbase, too.

The idea that we should make everything easier just irritates me, really. When nobody has to work very hard for anything they end up not appreciating anything they have. Which would, no doubt, lead to even more headaches for us as staff. No thanks!

We, of course, always strive for player retention. When a new player joins Excelsior, we want them to stay with us (provided they're not a cheater or a jerk.. ). So that is why we have the newbie quests, newbie dungeons, training room, etc etc. But there comes a point when efforts for friendliness toward new players, and newbie retention turn counter productive because things have become too easy. Which is therefore boring, and encourages poor sportsmanship/attitudes in those players. I'd also like to point out that having a max to how high you can work your skills against the trainers like a mindless zombie has benefit. Many newbies who join our shard are completely new to UO and have no idea how to play, or they've not played in a long time and have forgotten a lot of the basics. It's good for them to train a little in the training room when they need to be AFK, but it is also very beneficial for those players to then need to go and utilize the newbie dungeons and quests in order to learn/re-learn the ropes of basic Ultima Online gameplay.

I'm not against changes to the training room, I just don't see it being necessary or even particularly useful. Thus I'd rather us staff spend our limited staffing time doing other things.

[Fiernocht]

Limited staffing time, like what? dressing +V up in skirts and parading him around the mall?

[EnigmaMaitreya]

... Provide a free route for young players to train archery to 75 without the use of arrows. +V

And what of those young players wanting to play a Mage?

I am really hesitant to even pursue this as I would not want any change for the less.

(While what follows is said as though it were me, it is not, it is just a hypothetical statement made by a hypothetical person)

While I can understand the posture of making things to easy, what about the other side to that, I have done this ... stuff a hundred times, for goodness sake cant there be some relief here, no I am not interested in beating down the Lizardmen, Ratment for the 100th time.

I will put this on the table, any one new to UO, new to this shard etc, has an uphill battle that is to be waged vs the established players.

What would we suppose is the average bank balance here, 1.5M, 2.5M or does it really exceed 10M.

When one goes through the Vendors, which have in some cases been striped of their normal wares, through the Player Vendors, through [exex one finds an economy that is majoritivly tuned to that ... established economy. How does a new player to this shard effectivly deal with this economy? Yes you have addressed it ... mostly with the checks, the Player Escorts etc. But is that really the better, more effective way to allow them to get into the economy vs allow them to tailor their character the way they see fit? The Archery Dirk is a great idea, it saves a lot of gold, but as mentioned esarlier, what of the New Mage? Why were they ... tossed under the bus, what of the new Healer, what of the new Tamer + Veterinary? All of those need to expend gold to, yes, raise those skills, in a mostly very generous skill up implementation. Are you suggesting that Archery is tuned to be more difficult, because if that is the case, then the PvM event indicated that if anything it is even easier to raise archery than it is Magery. With out doing the math, I am sure the cost of reagents to a spell is ... lets just say more expensive (yes it is, because the new player to the shard wont have an LRC, unless they have been pimped out by someone) that an arrow or a bolt, That the cloth for Bandaids is ... here you got me, did you strip the NPC Vendor Arrows and Bolts out?

As I said, there is no way I want to be put on the negative side, meaning to justify change because one dirk provides a benifit to a particular play style. All I am asking is to provide the same relief to other play styles. Then again, if the Shard Vision is to coddle, make it easir on melee play styles, then who am I to rock the boat and if that is the case, then perhaps some were it might mention that melee play style prefered here.

Perhaps it is a bias on my part, I just do not want to ask for help or accept assistance from players as I am sure they have things to do that I can not at this time fit into. Yet, the established economy can be very formidable to deal with, in terms of trying to get up to par, economicly, to be able to use the established vendor pricing.

Perhpas I am not understanding something about the LRC system, perhpas as indirectly suggested in chat that a 10% lrc will drasticly reduce your reagentn use to almost nothing. If that is the case, then obviously I have a lot to learn about this version of UO as what I am accustomed to is 100% removes reagents, 50% is a 50/50 chance to not use a reagent, giving 10% being a 1 in 10 chance to NOT use a reagent.

... When a new player joins Excelsior, we want them to stay with us (provided they're not a cheater or a jerk.. )....

I am new here and as such I am not quite sure how to take people, some are already clear on how to deal with them. I have no idea what it is you mean with that statment, if it is a suggestion that I am the later as I can not see anything, on my part, that would suggest there being any merit to the former, then that is fine let me know. I really liked and understood your redo of the famous Old Ben Kenobi in Mos Eisley Spaceport, to an apparently near brain dead trooper

In addition, I ... oh well when powers get into a thread, it tends to go ... to strange places. Others tend to quote them as "Official Word of God" even though they are talking in the NON shark mode and speaking of that, that also is an issue as Powrs are Shape Shifters, they are just the you and me talking and they are the "I am telling you" some times the shift is so subtle that it isnt seen in time.

I think it may be time to simply say I have made my case, the changes wouldnt affect me. I worked my way up when UO opened its doors, I redid that scenario when T2A came out, having sold my account for 3K+ USD and then a 3rd time shortly after AoS. So yes, I have spent a lot of time in UO doing some very mundane things for very long periods of time. Yes it is much easier here. Yes it is possible that most of the established players have simply forgot or dont care that new players are not inherently able to deal, effectivly, with the estsablished economy.

[+Nyx]

(While what follows is said as though it were me, it is not, it is just a hypothetical statement made by a hypothetical person)

Just because you throw in a disclaimer like this doesn't mean it exempts you from any rudeness you follow it up with. I want this to be clear, since you are new here. Should you ever cross the line regarding language or behavior, I do not want you to think it is acceptable to do so long as you 'disclaimer' yourself beforehand.

While I can understand the posture of making things to easy, what about the other side to that, I have done this ... stuff a hundred times, for goodness sake cant there be some relief here, no I am not interested in beating down the Lizardmen, Ratment for the 100th time.

Repetitive actions are a huge part of game play even at the end game. Quests are done many times, mobs are farmed for hours on end. If you cannot stand the idea of killing lizardmen or ratmen for the 100th time, find something else to kill.

I will put this on the table, any one new to UO, new to this shard etc, has an uphill battle that is to be waged vs the established players.
What would we suppose is the average bank balance here, 1.5M, 2.5M or does it really exceed 10M.
When one goes through the Vendors, which have in some cases been striped of their normal wares, through the Player Vendors, through [exex one finds an economy that is majoritivly tuned to that ... established economy. How does a new player to this shard effectivly deal with this economy? Yes you have addressed it ... mostly with the checks, the Player Escorts etc.

Starting new anywhere is "an uphill battle". It's called earning what you have. As for the economy, our inflation is nowhere near as bad as most shards, and we regularly sink gold where we can. A new player can earn at least 2 million gold doing the rat quest within their 21 days, more if they are very diligent. And that is JUST the rat quest.

But is that really the better, more effective way to allow them to get into the economy vs allow them to tailor their character the way they see fit? The Archery Dirk is a great idea, it saves a lot of gold, but as mentioned esarlier, what of the New Mage? Why were they ... tossed under the bus, what of the new Healer, what of the new Tamer + Veterinary? All of those need to expend gold to, yes, raise those skills, in a mostly very generous skill up implementation.

Absolutely nothing, and nobody is stopping any player from tailoring their character the way they see fit. It is possible that some ways may be more difficult, complicated, or costly, but there's nothing wrong with that, either. How one plays their character is completely up to them.
Further, consider this: the dirks are there because V put them there. V and I are not permitted to code for this shard. We address what issues we can, when we see them. V added what he could for the newbs in the form of the dirks. Making a similar item for magery was not feasible without scripting. One option was too easily exploitable, and the other didn't work at all. The same goes for bandages - are we to just put them out free? Well, then every vet player would hop on by whenever they ran out and stock up. Even making them temporary, it would just mean that all the players online and planning to hunt would fill their pack with tons of free bandages and then run off to kill things. There was already enough outrage at Colibri's change to make vendors not purchase bandages from players, but that would pretty much kill the cloth making economy in a way that none of us would find acceptable. What are we to do, then? Not add the dirks at all, so as not to hurt anybody's feelings who may wish to play a mage or a tamer instead of an archer?
Either way, nobody was "tossed under the bus" as you so rudely put it. There are just more factors involved than you were bothering to think about.

... When a new player joins Excelsior, we want them to stay with us (provided they're not a cheater or a jerk.. )....

I am new here and as such I am not quite sure how to take people, some are already clear on how to deal with them. I have no idea what it is you mean with that statment, if it is a suggestion that I am the later as I can not see anything, on my part, that would suggest there being any merit to the former, then that is fine let me know. I really liked and understood your redo of the famous Old Ben Kenobi in Mos Eisley Spaceport, to an apparently near brain dead trooper

I noticed from previously in the thread that you tended to attack the other players with differing opinions, so I can see why you would assume that my own statement was directed at you, but it was not. It is a generalized statement that good players are valued here, and bad players are not. Other than being rude, and throwing out a star wars reference that is a thinly veiled insult, I have no opinion of you or your value as a player.

In addition, I ... oh well when powers get into a thread, it tends to go ... to strange places. Others tend to quote them as "Official Word of God" even though they are talking in the NON shark mode and speaking of that, that also is an issue as Powrs are Shape Shifters, they are just the you and me talking and they are the "I am telling you" some times the shift is so subtle that it isnt seen in time.

Yes it is possible that most of the established players have simply forgot or dont care that new players are not inherently able to deal with the estsablished economy.

No, it's that the established players know that it isn't that difficult if one actually works at it, and that there is inherent value in working hard for what one has, especially in a game like UO. Our players care quite a lot about the newbies, but they also believe that everyone should earn their gold and work for their relayers.

[anarchy]

i'm just happy that the staff have decided to put those dirks in the training room. in poker we have learned some is better than none. now the new players can have at least 75 in combat skills to get gold, and to survive out in the wild.

stuff like magery that takes reagents or alchemy or animal taming (you know you can tame animals not just make dyes), can be funded by the rat quest. the reason why 75 and not to 120 is that you have to put in some work for it. now you might say personal trainers aren't work but you have to earn the gold/eds to get one in the first place.

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
Other than being rude, and throwing out a star wars reference that is a thinly veiled insult, I have no opinion of you or your value as a player.

Yes it is possible that most of the established players have simply forgot or dont care that new players are not inherently able to deal with the estsablished economy.

No, it's that the established players know that it isn't that difficult if one actually works at it, and that there is inherent value in working hard for what one has, especially in a game like UO. Our players care quite a lot about the newbies, but they also believe that everyone should earn their gold and work for their relayers.

Information is very valuble, it keeps you out of trouble, keeps you alive. I have learned more from this thread than I have in the 21+ days I have been here, there is the surface then there is the reality.

You know when you take a PSI test (mind reading for example) being 100% wrong is very very informative, even more so than being 100% right.

Hind site is 20/20, but I am probably wrong with that as well.

Upon reflection of my own arguments vs those that treated me with such great patience, curtosy, and respect (I am sure the adage one must earn respect, never just given and is a one way street is comming) the premise that this shard preferintialy favors Melee answers 100% of the anomolous observations. This is not my shard, it is not for me to question the Shard Vision and administration.

One person in this entire thread actual tried to deal with the suggestion, for that I thank you.

All others pile it one from my perspective it is a done delivered dead horse.

[Asmodean]

If you want to play a mage, buy a 100% LRC suit, and have at it. Last i looked you could pick one up for 50k or less.
If you want to tame stuff, go tame it. You CAN tame it for FREE, and as long as you are young, you don't even get aggressively attacked should you wander into someplace nasty (unless you attack first). If you want to spend some money, buy a brush from the animal tamer to train it up. (I hear this also works for vet and lore, but have never tried.)

For pretty much any skill the difference between 0 and 75 is pretty huge. With some basic fighting skills, you have the opportunities to go out an EARN some gold either by killing easy things, or doing the rat quest for example, to buy your LRC suit to train up your skills that use reagents. If you do the rat quest once, you can easily buy some regs off the stone in trinsic. (They cost 5000 gold per 1000 regs for magery), which should provide you with quite a bit of training.

Also, you can train magery 100% harm free, so that is just one reason you don't need some sort of training room edge for working it up. The fighting skills, you can possibly die out there in the 'real world', so it makes sense to provide a safe place for that kind of training.

Its not that we want you to play like we play, but rather experience that dicates that this is not a magery heavy shard. If you want to be a mage great, awesome, more power to you, but the longer you play, the more you will realize this shard is geared towards fighting, and relayers, and 220 dex. You *could* e-bolt netopir dead but as he has 90,000 hit points its much more efficient to use armor pierce or double shot from a yumi, for example.

I use gate, and teleport, and rarely more than that for magery. As a new player, you wouldn't know that most likely, but the vets do, and they don't generally offer bad advice, even if its advice you might not see the reasoning behind. Cleric spells have made magery just about obsolete as touch of life is a much better heal, and restoration accomplishes the same thing as resurrection. It also only uses spirit speak, which is easily macro-able to 120. type "i pray to the gods" to bring up that menu in game if you don't know about it yet. For 200ED you can get a druid book with better AoE damage spells like volcanic eruption, and a godly mana/health regen spell - enchanted grove.

As far as adding dirks for blacksmithing, tinkering, or other crafting skills (lumberjacking excluded since you can raise that by fighting with an axe), i would strongly disagree. Mining, and lumberjacking are a great way for a new player to 1) make money, and 2) be self sufficient. You don't need everything handed to you to have fun, unless you got into gaming with the WoW folks who seem to feel they should be given a max level character, with raid gear and a significant amount of gold for just creating an account.

edit:
Oh, vet and healing. bandages are cheap. 2-3 gold per. if you want to train vet a suggestion has been given. If you want to train healing, train up necromancy (with LRC suit as mentioned above) - lich form - bandage until maxed. Simplest way. This can also be done AFK.

OR

Go out and fight stuff and get hit, and bandage that way. I don't think 0 threat from death deserves adding these skills to the training room

[Asmodean]

Oh and another reason i would disagree with the dirks for craft skills, is by actually going out and mining/lumberjacking you can work up your strength and dexterity while earning money (if you sell the ingots/boards).