Relayer Attributes?

[Wil]

Is there a list of attributes which should (barring the unusual) be on EVERY relayer made from a looted weapon? Note I'm talking about weapons being levelled to become relayers, NOT end-game weapons.

For example, my swag is for these attributes:

8 str, 8x4=32 points: strength makes you hit harder and increases your HP. No cap.

8 dex, 8x4=32 points: dex improves your healing rate (see 220 dex) and increases your stamina

8 int, 8x4=32 points: increases mana. Improves spell success rate. Does it increase damage from weapon spell effects?

8 bonus HP, 8x3=24 points: extra hit points gives you a better chance of survival.

8 bonus stamina, 8x3=24 points: stamina determines weapon swing speed.

8 bonus mana, 8x3=24 points: weapons specials consume mana. More mana, more use of weapons specials without waiting.

15 reflect physical, 15x3=45 points: high level monsters tend to deal you more damage than you deal them. With 220 dex instaheal, this is OK. When the damage bounces right back on them, it''s more than OK.

20 spell damage increase, 20x2=40 points: nice levelled weapons have multiple spell hits. SDI on the relayers increases the damage these hits do.

253 points total.

Should any of these attributes be only on select relayers? Are there any other attributes which should be on all relayers instead of just select ones?


By the same token, attributes which should NEVER be added to relayers by spending points:

Anything in the Weapon Hits catagory (hits on relayers have no effect)

Anything in the Misc catagory: Luck, Nightsight, self repair, best weapon skill (use deeds instead)


Am I correct that the main thing to look for in a weapon I intend to level for relayering is the resists (fire, cold, energy, poison)? A 4x12, 3x14 or better for looted resists makes a desirable starter?

Thanks,
Wil

[heyyo]

Well, I'm a huge fan of adding 25 enhance potions. Once you get a huge bag of holding and can carry a full keg of strength potions around, having gear with +enhance potions really adds a lot of hp. I gain over 100hp, and I've still got several slots to relayer.

[Sailor Jerry]

It depends on which school of thought you subscribe to and how many re-layers you plan to level and fund.

With the extreme plan of re-layering every item possible; you'll have plenty of points to max every capped attribute as well as hitting the item cap for all attributes that don't have caps. Technically, some attributes don't have caps but they do based on the number of wearable items. With a full-re-layer suit you don't even need 4x12/3x14 items to cap out.

Many take their suits to the next level by only using Bone Crushers. This gives them plus 2 strength per re-layer. This BC approach adds 30+ strength to a full-re-layered suit. At @3M a pop for the weapon (or a lot of doom-runs), a weapon change deed and the typical it can be a bit pricey.

Many do a mix of BC, looted, SOT and popular artifacts. The variables of this path are very dynamic.

The use of BC can also be used to off-set the lack of strength gained when not doing a full-re-layer suit. A full-re-layer suit provides +8STR & +8HP per item. With that said a full suit is much more desirable then a few BC's when it comes to the STR debate. Then you have the full-re-layer-suit with all BC; currently the best you can build approach.

To each his own.

Maybe start with your shirt, sash and belt slots; build a base and work outward. You have the right idea and correct with what you've stated so far.

Keep in mind you need to plan your build into your existing battle gear. Meaning you want the best gear possible while building your ultimate suit. I.e. It helps mitigate the time required leveling re-layers.

I highly suggest building a character sheet that tracks and forecasts your plan. There are several floating around. Alex recently updated his gear planner. Check them out or PM me for more detailed info.

[Wil]

Heyyo, would it be accurate to say:

If you add reflect physical to any relayer, you should add it to all

If you add enhance potions to any relayer, you should add it to all

But unless you plan to make a lot of relayers with these attributes, leave them off?


Jerry, I'm looking for explicit statements that can be made about specific attributes, not generalities. Sure there are many different strategies. What aspects are common to all of them? In what relayer plan would you choose -not- to add 8 HP to every relayer? Do you have one in mind? Or is at least 8 HP on every relayer in fact desirable? I hope to turn the information in to an addition to the wiki to try and make relayer planning less inscrutable to folks making their first or second.

Thanks,
Wil

[Sailor Jerry]

See below

Heyyo, would it be accurate to say:

If you add reflect physical to any relayer, you should add it to all
Good question...

Logic (at least the world I live in) would suggest you can only reflect 100% of something. Apparently this is not the case, the wiki and several players suggest, with 10 point of incoming damage... you can reflect double or more if your RPD percentage level is high enough. If true and obviously, we would want this on every item possible.

The problem is "if true" and did tests account for diminishing returns. I don't know.

A looted re-layer has 495 points plus fresh stats. If planned correctly and you have enough re-layers in your plan you'll have plenty of points to accommodate this unknown. My suggestion would be to max it out or apply it to all re-layers in your plan.

If you add enhance potions to any relayer, you should add it to all
I would and do, some don't. Your call but if you do, do it to all that you build. Zero or all-in would be my suggestion.

But unless you plan to make a lot of relayers with these attributes, leave them off?
SJ - Trick question, taking the fifth.

Jerry, I'm looking for explicit statements that can be made about specific attributes, not generalities. Sure there are many different strategies. What aspects are common to all of them?
SJ - You sound like my clients... wanting to know how much something cost without providing spec on what they want. No worries I'll give it a go...

In what relayer plan would you choose -not- to add 8 HP to every relayer?
SJ - None.

Do you have one in mind?

Or is at least 8 HP on every relayer in fact desirable?
SJ - Very much so, yes. I doubt anyone would say otherwise.

Here are my suggestions on no cap desirables...
Reflect Physical Damage (100+/DR unknown)
Spell Damage Increase (None)
Enhance Potions (None))
Bonus Strength (none)
Dexterity Bonus (none)
Intelligence Bonus (none)
Hit Point Increase (none)
Stamina Increase (none)
Mana Increase (none)
Luck (none)


I hope to turn the information in to an addition to the wiki to try and make relayer planning less inscrutable to folks making their first or second.

SJ - Awesome, the WIKI could use a few revisions and addendums.

On a similar note,
I am building a tool that does that very thing, less mysterious. With that said, my tool differs from the rest in that it excludes the obvious and not so obvious. The intent is get the user to focus on the vital stats. It includes conditional formatting to help focus on a characters weakness and includes a 'now' snapshot and an over-cap alarm. I am six re-layers into it and so far it's working as intended.

Thanks,
Wil

[Gaara]

Well, I'm a huge fan of adding 25 enhance potions. Once you get a huge bag of holding and can carry a full keg of strength potions around, having gear with +enhance potions really adds a lot of hp. I gain over 100hp, and I've still got several slots to relayer.

Totally worth it IMO, i got a ring with 75% on it + the enhance potions that comes from relayers = tons of str/hp

[Wil]

Thanks! I've added the information to http://www.uoex.net/wiki/Relayer#Getting_Started . Please let me know if you see any errors or recommend any changes.

[mattwaldram]

Nice work on updating the wiki - when I was getting started, understanding the whole 'levelable weapons' and 'relayers' thing took me quite a while. I pretty much wasted 50-levels worth of effort on a couple of half-decent weapons early on. This exta info would have been really useful at the time, so I'm sure it'll be useful to any new players, now.

[Sailor Jerry]

Nicely done!

[Devlin]

Whenever I do a relayer, I figure I'm working with 184 points.

311 go to all stats, regens, rpd, and spdmg.

Regens cap at around 40, when diminishing returns kick in, so after 5-6 relayers, then you're working with 253 points.

Leaves you with plenty for LMC/HCI/DCI and maybe FC/FCR through your first couple relayers. Then go resists for looks ;p

[Sailor Jerry]

Another (most likely unpopular) perspective would be to lower your starting base-build point requirement with regard to re-layers only. Basically, I disagree with this being the only approach and a lesser base-build being a waste... In general, do not consider leveling any weapons to become a relayers if they start with less than 250 spending points worth of relayerable attributes. Less than that is a waste.

With that mindset, you’re going to spend a lot of time looting and shopping for the “perfect” re-layer weapon, and a substantial amount of gold. For what, a few points upfront?

IMHO that statement (or any high base-build count) only applies to weapon builds.

Back to re-layer base-build and my point,
By adding one more re-layer to your planned re-layer count you can lower your base-build requirements or starting points. This will add more flexibility to each build and your overall suit plan. In the end saving you time and gold.

Another benefit,
Rather than focusing solely on 4x14 or whatever is deemed "perfect" now or later and being stuck with a difficult weapon to level... you can broaden your search to include weapons prone to leveling faster, cheaper and/or your preferred weapon type. The additional re-layer cost (ED) may get cancelled out with reduced or the elimination of weapon change deeds. For example, those who would change a PITA weapon into a WW weapon type.

The base-point requirement can be dropped considerably for those planning a high-count or full re-layer suit.

Using Devlin's spot on comment to explain my point a little better...
@ your first 1-5 re-layers you're pulling in 180+ expendable points; 250+ there after and climbing as you cap capable stats. Use some of these points to absorb a lower starting point thus getting started on your suit of badassary faster and cheaper.


In the end who cares what a re-layer started with as long as your capable stats are capped and you’re pushing your essential stats as far as your re-layer count will permit.

IMHO

[Wil]

Another (most likely unpopular) perspective would be to lower your starting base-build point requirement with regard to re-layers only. Basically, I disagree with this being the only approach and a lesser base-build being a waste... In general, do not consider leveling any weapons to become a relayers if they start with less than 250 spending points worth of relayerable attributes. Less than that is a waste.

Okay.

With that mindset, you’re going to spend a lot of time looting and shopping for the “perfect” re-layer weapon, and a substantial amount of gold. For what, a few points upfront?

Well, yes. I'm going to spend at least 50M gold (500 ED for the deed, 400 ED for luck, 50 ED to bless it, 50 ED for SR5, etc.) on a relayer. Why wouldn't I want to get 750 effective spending points instead of, say, 600? The base weapon to get me those extra points will cost me 1M to 2M more gold, and that only if I haven't already found a a decent starter on my own.

It's like with animal breeding: every two points closer to 30 that your initial gen 1's have saves you a week of a breeding. Finding those level 30s is usually worth an extra hour or two up front.

Regards,
Wil

[Asmodean]

I disagree with a couple things here.

First, I put regens on all my relayer's. I'll be at 13 ( + 5 SoTs) when the GM's answer my page. Diminishing returns is still returns. Its passive, and could save you when life leech doesn't hit, or in combination with life leech in areas with reduced healing, or stamina leech.

Also, Wil, when we spoke in game you said you only did 1-2 bone crushers. I personally wouldn't go that route because i'm more of an all or nothing type person. If you're only going to do 1-2 bone crushers, don't do any. You can get the DI somewhere else, and 1-2 points of damage probably won't make a big difference. If you do all bone crushers, 12+ points DOES make a pretty significant difference in your damage output.

18 hp doesn't seem like a lot, (3 from each BC) but that's like having an extra re-layer for hit points. (A bone crusher gives 23).

In short, go all bone crushers, or none and save yourself the money.

Also, I always recommend people to put SR5 (buy deed for 50ED) on all their re-layers. They don't take damage currently, but if they ever do, you will be prepared.

It doesn't matter what you re-layer. You have more spending points than you have useful things to spend them on around 12-13 re-layers. You could even do more re-layers instead of SoTs (more regens!) if you wanted. You could do all horse lords and come out the same as 10 choice weapons etc. The only difference is the amount of points you have left over. There isn't a need to count every point, unless you're just trying to min/max the efficiency of the points. Like I said, I used 12 bone crushers, which have essentially 40 points (i only count strength, because damage increase is pretty easy). I have everything maxed, 70's resists, points to spare. Don't not level a weapon to re-layer because you can't find one with some arbitrary number of pre-spent points. Sure, some efficiency is good, but there isn't a real need to min/max.

[Wil]

Also, Wil, when we spoke in game you said you only did 1-2 bone crushers. I personally wouldn't go that route because i'm more of an all or nothing type person. If you're only going to do 1-2 bone crushers, don't do any. You can get the DI somewhere else, and 1-2 points of damage probably won't make a big difference. If you do all bone crushers, 12+ points DOES make a pretty significant difference in your damage output.

Howdy,

I haven't done any bonecrushers yet. I was saying that I don't understand why I would want to do more than two.

18 hp doesn't seem like a lot, (3 from each BC) but that's like having an extra re-layer for hit points. (A bone crusher gives 23).

In short, go all bone crushers, or none and save yourself the money.

This I don't understand. The relayable attributes on a Bonecrusher are 10 str and 75 DI, right? Damage Increase caps at 100. STR has no cap and 10 is 2 more than the max 8 that can be put on an ordinary relayer.

This means that your first bonecrusher adds the equivalent of (75x4)+(10x4)=340 spending points to the relayer from the built-in DI and STR. The second BC relayer effectively adds 190 spending points from the built-ins and the third and subsequent BC relayers add only 40 points from the built-ins.

Relayering the first BC is a gimme -- 340 points! But after that the efficiency seems to drop off. Better STR could be had from relayering Spirit of Totems with their 20 STR bonus.

What am I missing?

It doesn't matter what you re-layer. You have more spending points than you have useful things to spend them on around 12-13 re-layers. You could even do more re-layers instead of SoTs (more regens!) if you wanted. You could do all horse lords and come out the same as 10 choice weapons etc. The only difference is the amount of points you have left over. There isn't a need to count every point, unless you're just trying to min/max the efficiency of the points. Like I said, I used 12 bone crushers, which have essentially 40 points (i only count strength, because damage increase is pretty easy). I have everything maxed, 70's resists, points to spare. Don't not level a weapon to re-layer because you can't find one with some arbitrary number of pre-spent points. Sure, some efficiency is good, but there isn't a real need to min/max.

That's an interesting point. How many spending points "caps out" on the capped and diminishing returns attributes?

Anyway, thanks for offering your insights.

Regards,
Wil

[Melkor]

Just like to weigh in on a couple things.

I like Regens on all relayers, every little bit helps

All Bone Crushers are nice, nothing wrong with that. However I like a little variety. Basically a relayer suit made from a mix of BC, SOP, and Looted resist weapons. The Swords of Prosperity gives the FC1 which is 50 points right there, and it also gives 200 luck. Sure luck isn’t super helpful here, all the more reason to get it “cheap” on the SOP. I also really like looted resist weapons for relayers, especially if you can find one with FC or SSI on it. Also they take the name of the sample when relayering, unlike arti’s that keep the name of the weapon. It’s a cosmetic thing but it’s good for slots that are visible on the paperdoll. I also don’t like too many SOTs, because you lose out on SDI. I kept my suit to 3 slots with no SDI, two SOT and one Glittering Ice Wrap.

To the point of only a few BC not really being worth it, I take the view like the regens, every little bit helps.

Have fun building your suits!