Trouble makers hurt the shard

[fixxer1963]

I think too much time is wasted trying to appease the trouble makers. And I think it is causing the staff too much stress.

There are a small handful of people on the shard that cause 99% of the trouble.. repeatedly. It is a huge waste of time and energy to even try to and explain anything to them, because they don't want to know. Anything you say to them, they will twist and turn it to use it against you.

The vast majority of players on the shard are appreciative and just want to have fun. It seems the small handful are only here to make trouble.

I think the elaborate rules should be simplified. "Play nice, or be banned." If you can't comprehend what "Play nice" means.. you are hopeless and should not be permitted to stay.

Whether you donate or not.

Good bye, and good riddance.

That is the opinion of an old man who has seen trouble all over the world. Take it as you please.

[Karadas]

Even if I can understand your point a bit, repression never end well. If we have to play under the pression of "be good all the time or you will be exterminated" we can't play motivated.

I mean, everyone can have a bad day. I had one when my grandfather passed away and a dude started with bullshit. Of course, identical behavior for a long time should be punished, but not with few faults because we're all humans and we have RL issues.

This is a Ultima Online, not Gestapo Simulator 2015.

[fixxer1963]

I agree, "bad days" should be accounted for. No sarcasm intended.
But sometimes it is obvious that somebody is trying to skirt the rules intentionally. Other times, a person shows a pattern of malicious trolling and should be booted.
I am not talking about playful trolling, or making the occasional bad judgement call, within reason. But to continually disrespect the staff and/or players. To continually complain that things are not the way they want them. To continually demand things because they "Donate to keep the shard running".
I personally disagree with some of the rules. Not many, just a handful really. But I also do not know all the reasons the rules were made. And I don't go around complaining on the forums about the rules and try to discredit the staff.
The staff is volunteering their time and energy for our benefits, and are constantly being berated by the same handful of people on the forums. These people, in my opinion, should just be told to go elsewhere.
Everybody deserves a few second chances, assuming they realize at some point they were wrong, and apologize just as publicly as they criticized.
I myself have posted stuff or sent PMs long after I should have been asleep. And have had to (because I was raised right), apologize for being stupid.

[+Nyx]

The fact that anyone on a video game views "play nice or be banned" as a form of repression is ridiculous. Women being beaten to death or having acid thrown on their face for baring their hair in public is repression. This is a video game on which players have the privilege of playing. This is not a recognized society, being banned does not repress anyone in any way. If one gets banned, one has simply lost the privilege of being a part of this server. It is not one's right to behave however they want here. If one doesn't want to lose that privilege, well, being a decent person on the shard isn't at all difficult.

I actually 100% agree with you, Hawke. There are rules here even I do not agree with, and I still have to enforce them. Many a time I've been having a jolly belly-laugh at something someone has said in wc even while I am having to lecture them or write them up. And yes, there are a handful of players who want to snipe at / attack the staff at any opportunity. I too agree that these people do not belong on this shard. It's a family shard, after all, and why should the players receive better treatment than "mom and dad"? I get that taking crap from people is part of the job, but you are right. Some folks are just doing it to be vicious or because their own personality feeds on it; not because they've had a bad day or gotten a little out of hand with a joke. We are actually quite good at determining the difference - particularly since we can check the logs (Also helps to have a staffer who's in psychology as a career ). People are, by and large, easy to read and predictable. It is not difficult to tell the good-seeds having a rough day from the bad seeds having a field day.

Unfortunately, it's not up to me, and we handle things the way we are required to do. As +V said in another thread recently - we have to answer to both the players and to +C on pretty much any incident. When we've had event rules that read essentially "play nice or you will be removed", and then had to remove players - we've been asked from both sides why we didn't properly explain what we expected of the players. It gets old. So now we write things out as detailed as we can, because it's just easier to be able to point out to both the players and the head honcho that we DID explain what we expected.

There are a few players who simply do not appreciate what the staff does and who - like you said - take every opportunity to cause trouble for us (particularly on the forums). Yet those players are completely gung-ho to attend our events, often bashing us and the events while participating and salivating over what reward they might get. God forbid it's an event with a winner, because if they don't win, there's even more drama. I personally believe that even if a player isn't quite ready to be banned from the shard, that there are a handful who shouldn't be allowed to attend our events. They've gone out of their way to specifically cause trouble for me and/or V, and yet they want to benefit from our hard work. We do occasionally enact this by letting a problematic player they aren't welcome for a specific amount of time, but again then we're explaining ourselves to +C, who believes that events are for everyone no matter what. But we can't usually jail them for an appropriate amount, either. I have had to argue my case at length for banning a player who - in front of other players - threatened to find me in RL, rape and then murder me. That is an absolutely true story, and not even the only situation we've dealt with where a player has so far crossed the line. We have had ~5+ players in the time I've staffed here who have threatened to "find" me/us, and harm us physically. Those players generally were not banned for that behavior. Most of them eventually were, but we were not permitted to remove them after they made threats toward us. So we're essentially forced to take all sorts of crap from people, all the way up to being threatened physically, and it's miserable beyond your wildest dreams lol.

Anyway, I think you've raised an interesting topic that the shard could benefit from discussing.

[+Veritas]

To add to what Nyx said...

Nowhere in my employee contract, that I didn't sign and doesn't exist, did it say that staff have to grin and bear continuous and baseless attack and below the radar anti-staff propaganda that has absolutely zero truth backing it up. This isn't Burger King. I am not here to take your order, and you cannot always have it your way.

+V

[Pariah]

I've struggled mightily recently with participating with the community of the shard as a whole. This goes from reading every forum post about an event, change, new rule that inevitably leads to someone bringing their baggage into the mix. The challenge I see is multi-faceted. I am all for constructive discontent. However, this is not what happens. All issues become a giant exercise in futility.

Forums

Staff announces X. Player A complains about X. Staff painstakingly details why X is X and not Y. Player B complains about person A complaining. Player C complains about Person B complaining about Person C. Staff regrets ever doing X...

Notice, none of the players are offering alternatives to X, requesting clarification on X, or suggesting the merits of Y. Thus, it becomes nothing more than a personality conflict.

Staff interprets this as a Player A instigating drama. Some players agree. Others disagree. Freedom of speech and what not.

World Chat
Player A asks a question in world chat that is contained in the Codex or Wiki. Player B advises to read the Codex or Wiki. Player A, without fail, claims they did, but it wasn't there. Player C chimes in with an incorrect answer to Player A while accusing Player B of being rude. Player B withdraws from community leaving an imbalance of A and C.

General
Player A is awaiting a spawn. Player B comes in with his 5 imps given to them week 1 by Player C and as the monster spawns it aggros to Player B. Player B sicks all 5 imps on monster essentially taking Player A's turn at the spawn. Player A PMs Player B to notify Player B that they just broke the rules and to visit the codex. Player B tells Player A they aren't going to read that much and it's a "free dungeon." Player A pages staff, but feels like a heel for involving staff in such a petty squabble. Player B has "discussion" with staff and goes on about their day.

All 3 of these are real and common occurrences I have experienced in the last 6 months. In fact, if it weren't for a very select few veteran players here, and the staff, I would likely have quit in this timeframe. I see a challenge with enforcement. None of these scenarios listed above resulted in anything of consequence.

A) The forums are not moderated to remove posts generally only created to voice negativity. There is no requirement to be constructive with your input on the forums. Posts of the vocal and colored minority are allowed to derail entire topics.
B) World chat is lightly monitored for appropriateness of content. There are no consequences for delivery of incorrect information. Enforcement of understanding the codex is inconsistent. While we've clamped down on spam and even advertising in chat, people are perfectly within their rights to ask questions that they are required to know as part of the agreement to play here. Others are not prevented from participating in chat or the shard by then answering those questions incorrectly, also indicating they do not understand the rules they have agreed to.
C) Rules, when broken, are lightly enforced. A person actively breaking the rules generally receives a reminder or a slap on the wrist. The progressive discipline structure here is too light. You can break rule A, slap on the wrist, break rule B, slap on the wrist, break rule C, slap on the wrist, and so on. Significant consequences are reserved for very specific violations. For example, you can AFK gather resources 4 times or more and the highest penalty is a 5 day reprieve from gathering resources. However, if you have more than 1 account, you can be banned from the shard entirely immediately (with very little recourse).

This all leads to what I see as an ineffectual system and a dystopian community. These are what I see as the major problems, but what are the solutions?

1) A general conduct rule that requires forum posts to be constructive. Note that I didn't say universal in agreement or acclaim. If you disagree, state your issues plainly without malice AND offer potential alternatives. Those who violate this rule have their forum privilege revoked for that topic. Allow staff to mark or flag posts for removal, have some sort of community voting etc., to remove posts. For exploiters, repeat violations, etc, your forum privileges as a whole are revoked.
2) Either a) remove all world chat restrictions excepting Spam and inappropriate content. Allow players to ask/state whatever they want. Welcome to the Thunderdome...or b) hold people accountable to their world chat participation. If you ask a question that is covered in the codex by a clear rule, consider that a rule violation. If you answer a question incorrectly that is covered by the codex, consider that a rule violation.
3) Remove the artificial constructs and haphazard nature/enforcement of the current penalty system. Break ANY rule once, you are advised to re-read the codex, do some jail tasks, etc. Break ANY rule again, re-read codex, do a LARGE amount of jail tasks. Break ANY rule a third time, temporary account ban (30 days). Fourth, permanent account ban. NOTE: This includes being a good citizen of the community as outlined in 1 or 2.

These may seem harsh, but I honestly feel like the shard has become a place that is too lenient. This is troublesome because the actions of a few have become the actions of many. I've encountered more pissing contests, rule breaking, and simply bad advice over the last 6 months than I encountered in my first 2 years here combined. Those who wish to be a positive and lasting influence here are becoming disillusioned. I know I'm not the only one. I have many more thoughts, but this is enough to be getting on with for now. I might check back in with additional thoughts.

[+Nyx]

Pariah, I agree with you almost completely.

Do let me explain why we don't moderate the forums much. We used to - I'm not sure if you were here at that time. It used to be that whenever a player made a Drama Llama post (yeah, I said it.), that post or the entire topic was moved into a private section not viewable to anyone but staff. However, when that was the case, there were dozens more threads like that. They'd see their idiotic drama post was removed, then they'd post another thread that the staff were hiding the truth or didn't want the rest of the shard to see how this player had 'owned' us, blah blah blah drivel drivel drivel. It was disgustingly irritating. So, then we started with the policy that if a player makes something public, then let it stay public for all to see and point and laugh at their stupidity.

I believe strongly that in these cases, the player making the drama should have forum access revoked while also being jailed - and if they were particularly nasty to a specific staffer, then that staffer should be permitted to also disallow that person from their events until such a time as that player gets their head out of their bum and is willing to apologize. Generally that will never happen, so a set amount of time being barred from the events would need to suffice.

I also agree about world chat - I think spreading misinformation - whether it be about the codex or about the staff or anything else shard-related is poisonous to the community. There are a couple players in particular for whom this is almost their entire contribution to wc - bad information. We aren't really permitted to do much about this. However, I would sooner and much more firmly vote in favor of letting wc become more of a free-for-all (within our language/drama rules, possibly even loosened up on the language - we're asked to keep it PG-13, but what we're required to enforce is usually a lot more like G.) than it is now. I'm all for providing the least restrictive environment as is reasonable, with heavy punishments for violations.

I think there was probably a time for this shard, a long time ago, when the ultra-leniency was a boon. No doubt the community was smaller, and the shard was in its 'honeymoon' phase. I firmly believe that is no longer the case. As we all know, there are players here who go out of their way to start trouble for no good reason, and that gets the other semi-trolls out of their dungeons, contributing to the situation. I really, really hate jailing people - even the ones who deserve it - because it is a guaranteed migraine for me. What with dealing with the player themselves, then documenting the incident in detail, then later having to explain it all anew and at length to +C...it's just not at all fun. There is not a single person on this shard or anywhere on the internet who jailing them would give me enough amusement to be worth that migraine. So, yeah, lots of folks think we get our jollies jailing people, but the reality is that when I've gone a month without having to jail ANYONE, I am happy and have had a much nicer month with regards to staffing. The only reason I do enforce the rules at all is because I love the shard as a whole and I believe in it and in what it could be. That makes it marginally worth the migraine.

But even though I really, really hate jailing people - it's necessary. Leniency is good when a player is someone who obviously deserves it and obviously has the maturity to realize they've made an error. It is not a good thing to give leniency to someone of the other variety, because then all they take away from the situation is that they not only got to do whatever it was they did in violation of the codex, but they 'got one over' on the staff and were able to 'get off easy'. It just encourages them to do it again, or violate the rules in new ways. I have seen this far too many times over my years staffing here, and V has seen it even more in -his- time here, to not know this as an absolute truth.

And also you are so, so right about the staff regretting doing X. When we open an event, we've spent time to do it, and when it's then turned into a dramafest by some troll, and we have little to no actual recourse ... yeah. It starts to become a 'why bother' for us, because it's just going to happen again next time, and we will have to give the drama queen another slap on the wrist for 'punishment'. So they'll do it again.. and again.. and again.

[EndeR]

I agree with most everything said on this thread. I do want the staff to know there are some of us players that do appreciate the events. I try to attend all the events i can rl permitting.

It does bother me when so often the few ruin it for the many.

Thanks staff

[Devlin]

There's no sense getting all riled up every time a bunch of idiots give you a hard time. In the end, the universe tends to unfold as it should.

[+Nyx]

I think the entire point of the thread is that it isn't working itself out in a manner good for the shard.

And essentially saying to ignore it isn't helpful. We aren't -allowed- to just ignore the shard. Paying attention to who's doing what is the job. Enforcing the rules - part of the job. Being attacked/verbally abused/threatened - not part of the job and not something anyone should have to deal with. Particularly not volunteers. I think you also mistake response and action for being 'riled'. I'll certainly address issues that go on with the shard, and it does get draining and depressing to work here a fair bit of the time what with all those drama queens and trolls; but that does not mean that when we reply to someone's QQ that we are furious or emotionally entangled about it.

[MrJones]

Agree or Disagree, but I say oh well, and Just let everyone have their opinion, but to who ever caused this thread in the first place, Just respect each other and lets Enjoy the game and Love everyone!!
I'm Mr.Jones
"And I approve this message"

[fixxer1963]

Devlin
In the end, the universe tends to unfold as it should.

The problem with that is that the universe is shaped by people's actions. If nobody stands up to evil, evil wins.

MrJones
Agree or Disagree, but I say oh well, and Just let everyone have their opinion, but to who ever caused this thread in the first place, Just respect each other and lets Enjoy the game and Love everyone!!

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but they are not entitled to disrespect, threaten, or otherwise deprive others of happiness.

These people will NOT just enjoy the game. And they will NOT Love everyone.

[onemoregenius]

I'll just leave this here...

persecution-download copy.jpg (66.13 KiB) Viewed 9460 times

[Larsa]

C+ should consider opening a position exclusively to enforce drama queens and trouble makers. Like a "enforcer" someone that is not close to any player whatsoever, someone from the outside. His/her duty will be to follow these "special" players for a bit and determine if their main goal is to annoy the regular population. Then they can make their life a "living hell", I mean a little bit more challenging to the point that they will quit the shard.

Fight fire with fire!

/thread

[Maul Binder]

problem with that is the kickback given by others that dont support and feel its the staffs job to try and direct these people as i have done many times and only gotten nastiness from others telling me to back off from ones not even involved and then insulting me from person that did the crime as well as others that feel i shouldnt say anything its staffs job but it should be all of our jobs not just staffers to inform the wrong doers and such.