Vendor Malls 2.0
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Alamiester
- Legendary Scribe
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:49 pm
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
not in the same way the mz ones are though.
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
I think a lot of us are missing a point about "undercutting" others set prices as being a "bad" thing. A seller who has been undercut for a high gold item can simply "snipe it" and "flip it" at their higher price if they think it will sell at that higher rate. The same item can be over priced, under priced, or priced for what the market will bear, that's how it should work. Supply and Demand should balance it all out in the long run. Let's take for example +R's argument:
Ultimately, items should be priced according to supply and demand. Listing the prices for comparison, I believe, allows that (and encourages it) to happen precisely because of undercutting. Not listing prices globally (i.e. vendors website) only benefits the profit margins of veteran players (i.e. the sellers). Worse case scenario is that grossly overinflated prices turn off brand new players as being dauntingly out of reach, thereby further reducing the demand due to an immediate reduction in the player base. Especially when/if they begin to view ED as the "real money" currency and the shard becomes seen as a "pay-to-win" service in their eyes.
This argument considers only one side, the seller. Yes, i agree, the seller would have to work 3x as hard to earn enough funds to buy a relayer, but consider the buyer who is also a "new player." Who, is perhaps even newer, takes as much as a week to earn a million gold based on their gear and daily playing time restrictions. They have to farm 3x as long to buy that same archery power scroll for 3 million gold. Is 3 million is overpriced? 1 million is under-priced? *shrugs*, I dunno. Without listing item prices, there isn't really a way to tell and inflation tends to go rampant (as it is now). Listing the prices causes a "problem?" For who, the seller? The buyer will always tend to be the "newer player" in the game of the "haves" and the "have nots" as the haves have had more time to acquire their haves, so-to-speak.+Requiem wrote: Undercutting is a huge issue, that not many truly understand. There are still people who will argue with me over "lower prices helps the newbies", which in fact it does not.
Let's look at a classic example. Archery 120. Arguably one of the most valuable scrolls on the server.
If it's going value is 3 million gold, you need to sell 9 of them to purchase a relayer, at 25,000,000 gold. If people keep undercutting it, and the value drops to 1 million gold, now you need to sell 25 of them to get that same relayer. You've just forced the new player to work 3 times harder, to get the same "value" out of their work. They need to do 3x the champions, because the scrolls have been devalued.
Ultimately, items should be priced according to supply and demand. Listing the prices for comparison, I believe, allows that (and encourages it) to happen precisely because of undercutting. Not listing prices globally (i.e. vendors website) only benefits the profit margins of veteran players (i.e. the sellers). Worse case scenario is that grossly overinflated prices turn off brand new players as being dauntingly out of reach, thereby further reducing the demand due to an immediate reduction in the player base. Especially when/if they begin to view ED as the "real money" currency and the shard becomes seen as a "pay-to-win" service in their eyes.
Last edited by Ghurdo on Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
Often times we are all guilty of pointing out problems without offering potential solutions. One thing to note about this thread about vendor malls is the lack of discussion about the effects vendor malls have on private vendors placed at player homes. I genuinely miss the days of traveling around the countryside looking for player vendors to buy stuff from. Marking runes when I find the "good" ones. The system that is in place now seems to make it non-viable for players to run vendor shop keepers from their homes. At this time there seems to be only two viable options for player vendors, TC or MZ. Prices at TC skyrocket because of alternate currencies and sellers that seem to be expecting to be [pm'd with "real" offers where they pull the item for sale off their vendor to trade privately to avoid the "taxes." The alternate currency on vendors in new player zones can be easily misunderstood as symptoms of a "pay-to-win" system thereby potentially turning off brand new players immediately and permanently. Never a good idea IMO.
My solution is to foster an environment of competition, but most importantly, keep the system simple:
The benefit of using private vendors at a private house (or guild market) is vendors last longer when not maintained and cost a bit less to post items. The downside to private vendors is the lack of teleporting via a vendor stone. The buyer has to go find that shop to buy that item. The idea here is potentially two business models: the premium mall area is for "retail" prices, but the private shop keepers tend to the "wholesale" businesses. The more active players will tend to use vendors in the premium malls, but the newer player or the less active veteran can once again sport a viable vendor from their home. The advantage of running a vendor in a premium mall is the one-stop-shopping environment and the ease of use with the vendor stone teleport to vendor feature exclusive to the premium malls. The downside of running a vendor from a player house is analogous to spending a dollar on gas to save a quarter on a gallon of milk. Players have to take the time to go out and look for the product or spend slightly more gold shopping at the mall and just be done with it.
Remove all costs from the vendors except for the upfront non-refundable stocking fee for posting an item. Perhaps a weekly space (or "stool") rental in premium mall, that makes logical sense as part of the "maintenance" but not taken out automatically. Let inactive vendors give up their seat in the malls. I personally like the IDOC idea where all items drop to the ground when a vendor "collapses" but I can see people targeting a specific item on a IDOC vendor spamming grab on that item id in an AFK macro. Perhaps the better solution is to just dump all items into a white bag into their owners bank box, but I digress.
After posting an item on a vendor (and paying the stocking fee), that item cannot be removed or repriced for a period of three days. This gives others three days to undercut the posted price on that item. Those posted items with undercut prices can always be sniped and resold at higher prices, but only if its easy to compare price listings. End result is, the under-cutter gets their immediate gratification of selling their product at a reduced rate while the sniper buys more stock at a reduced rate. Both players benefit. After the three days have expired, no additional charges are applied and the item remains listed until sold or removed manually at no added expense. Items being repriced after the three days will then incur another non-refundable stocking fee as the item is re-posted at the new rate.
Please don't penalize players who wish place vendors at their house. Promote pricing competition by posting the price of ALL items on the website. Not posting the price there only drives prices up and promotes people pulling items from their vendor and avoiding sales tax when they get [pm'd with a "real" bid. Listing each items price on the vendor search website should promote healthy pricing competition. Using an upfront non-refundable stocking fee to stock an item on a vendor should virtually eliminate the notion of bypassing the "tax" because it's already been paid and the merchant would have to pay again to "restock" the item at a different price. Sellers will really have to think hard about their prices if they're going to be successful. Lower stocking fee rates at player houses should lead to items being posted at lower prices than at premium malls and promote both the "wholesale" and "retail" markets as well as bring back shopping "exploration" again.
- Ghurdo
My solution is to foster an environment of competition, but most importantly, keep the system simple:
- 1) Eliminate the daily vendor fees for all player vendors.
- 2) Eliminate the sales tax altogether.
- 3) Incorporate a non-refundable upfront "Stocking Fee" when placing items for sale. After placed, an item cannot be removed or repriced for three days. When the item is removed the stocking fee is lost. When the item is restocked at a different rate, another non-refundable upfront "Stocking Fee" is charged again based on the new set price (and locked again for three more days).
- 4) List ALL items with their respective prices on the vendor search website (free) to promote healthy pricing competition. Make it as easy as possible to search for product and compare prices.
- 5) Continue using the "Vendor Finder" stone to teleport to vendors (it really is very cool), but only teleport to those vendors in premium mall areas. For shop keepers and vendors at player houses the finder stone only returns sextant coordinates (with facet) and perhaps a short and somewhat vague direction string, like: "A ways east of Destard"
- 6) Impose a type of "IDOC" system on vendors, they must be maintained weekly (for premium mall vendors) or monthly for shop keepers at player houses. What happens after that period could be: items drop to the ground to be looted freely, or sent to the owners bank.. most importantly, that vendor "seat" is given up and made available for a more active vendor.
The benefit of using private vendors at a private house (or guild market) is vendors last longer when not maintained and cost a bit less to post items. The downside to private vendors is the lack of teleporting via a vendor stone. The buyer has to go find that shop to buy that item. The idea here is potentially two business models: the premium mall area is for "retail" prices, but the private shop keepers tend to the "wholesale" businesses. The more active players will tend to use vendors in the premium malls, but the newer player or the less active veteran can once again sport a viable vendor from their home. The advantage of running a vendor in a premium mall is the one-stop-shopping environment and the ease of use with the vendor stone teleport to vendor feature exclusive to the premium malls. The downside of running a vendor from a player house is analogous to spending a dollar on gas to save a quarter on a gallon of milk. Players have to take the time to go out and look for the product or spend slightly more gold shopping at the mall and just be done with it.
Remove all costs from the vendors except for the upfront non-refundable stocking fee for posting an item. Perhaps a weekly space (or "stool") rental in premium mall, that makes logical sense as part of the "maintenance" but not taken out automatically. Let inactive vendors give up their seat in the malls. I personally like the IDOC idea where all items drop to the ground when a vendor "collapses" but I can see people targeting a specific item on a IDOC vendor spamming grab on that item id in an AFK macro. Perhaps the better solution is to just dump all items into a white bag into their owners bank box, but I digress.
After posting an item on a vendor (and paying the stocking fee), that item cannot be removed or repriced for a period of three days. This gives others three days to undercut the posted price on that item. Those posted items with undercut prices can always be sniped and resold at higher prices, but only if its easy to compare price listings. End result is, the under-cutter gets their immediate gratification of selling their product at a reduced rate while the sniper buys more stock at a reduced rate. Both players benefit. After the three days have expired, no additional charges are applied and the item remains listed until sold or removed manually at no added expense. Items being repriced after the three days will then incur another non-refundable stocking fee as the item is re-posted at the new rate.
Please don't penalize players who wish place vendors at their house. Promote pricing competition by posting the price of ALL items on the website. Not posting the price there only drives prices up and promotes people pulling items from their vendor and avoiding sales tax when they get [pm'd with a "real" bid. Listing each items price on the vendor search website should promote healthy pricing competition. Using an upfront non-refundable stocking fee to stock an item on a vendor should virtually eliminate the notion of bypassing the "tax" because it's already been paid and the merchant would have to pay again to "restock" the item at a different price. Sellers will really have to think hard about their prices if they're going to be successful. Lower stocking fee rates at player houses should lead to items being posted at lower prices than at premium malls and promote both the "wholesale" and "retail" markets as well as bring back shopping "exploration" again.
- Ghurdo
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
I don't have a lot of time to address this right now, but I just want to say this.Ghurdo wrote:I think a lot of us are missing a point about "undercutting" others set prices as being a "bad" thing. A seller who has been undercut for a high gold item can simply "snipe it" and "flip it" at their higher price if they think it will sell at that higher rate. The same item can be over priced, under priced, or priced for what the market will bear, that's how it should work. Supply and Demand should balance it all out in the long run. Let's take for example +R's argument:
This argument considers only one side, the seller. Yes, i agree, the seller would have to work 3x as hard to earn enough funds to buy a relayer, but consider the buyer who is also a "new player." Who, is perhaps even newer, takes as much as a week to earn a million gold based on their gear and daily playing time restrictions. They have to farm 3x as long to buy that same archery power scroll for 3 million gold. Is 3 million is overpriced? 1 million is under-priced? *shrugs*, I dunno. Without listing item prices, there isn't really a way to tell and inflation tends to go rampant (as it is now). Listing the prices causes a "problem?" For who, the seller? The buyer will always tend to be the "newer player" in the game of the "haves" and the "have nots" as the haves have had more time to acquire their haves, so-to-speak.+Requiem wrote: Undercutting is a huge issue, that not many truly understand. There are still people who will argue with me over "lower prices helps the newbies", which in fact it does not.
Let's look at a classic example. Archery 120. Arguably one of the most valuable scrolls on the server.
If it's going value is 3 million gold, you need to sell 9 of them to purchase a relayer, at 25,000,000 gold. If people keep undercutting it, and the value drops to 1 million gold, now you need to sell 25 of them to get that same relayer. You've just forced the new player to work 3 times harder, to get the same "value" out of their work. They need to do 3x the champions, because the scrolls have been devalued.
Ultimately, items should be priced according to supply and demand. Listing the prices for comparison, I believe, allows that (and encourages it) to happen precisely because of undercutting. Not listing prices globally (i.e. vendors website) only benefits the profit margins of veteran players (i.e. the sellers). Worse case scenario is that grossly overinflated prices turn off brand new players as being dauntingly out of reach, thereby further reducing the demand due to an immediate reduction in the player base. Especially when/if they begin to view ED as the "real money" currency and the shard becomes seen as a "pay-to-win" service in their eyes.
In your example, considering the buyer... for most high end items (powerscrolls, batwings, jackals etc) a person is only a buyer ONCE, then becomes a seller. So, if a new player buys Archery 120, and uses it, they no longer need it. The more it's undervalued, the less it sells when they get that particular powerscroll from a champ. So, they have to champ 2x, 3x, 4x as much, to earn those scrolls to sell, after they have one for themselves. This is where the extra work comes in.
Also, you have to consider that being a video game, there is unlimited supply of items, and limited demand, based on the number of players.
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
Sample results from my own custom personal shopping macro using search filters: "Bat wings" and "Archery (120"
From the fact that there are 12-13 of each item, I can infer that those items are "over-valued" because they're not moving at their current price. Even at the lowest price, 2.5m might make more sense if only 1 or 2 Bat Wings were available. Based on the laws of supply and demand, the more items that are available the less "value" they have. Not the other way around. An item is only "undervalued" if it is priced for less than the point at which its value has become normalized and that value is based objectively on the current market, not on the highest, the lowest, nor on any subjectively desired price.
When (or if) a price comparison is put in place, everyone with such "high end" items will likely take a loss from the currently perceived value that has been artificially imposed on those items. This should be expected as those prices are massively over-inflated at this time. I assume you experienced a similar effect when prices were listed for comparison in the past and thus panicked when the prices fell through the floor. This will happen. Count on it, expect it, and plan for it. All prices will stabilize to a point where the market dictates, but only in an environment where pricing is open and competitive. Farming Champs for Archery 120 power scrolls is not the only source of income in this game. When the value of those scrolls drops to a point where the market will bear and their "value" becomes normalized, that player can move on to find a more profitable venture whenever they like. They're not locked into only the one activity, nor should they ever be. The point is those scrolls are not being "undervalued" as suggested in the above quote, but rather their value is being normalized from their previously "over-valued" state.
Code: Select all
As of 10.16.18 17:26 shard time
Bat wings: 12 available with Semtex listing lowest at 2.5m gold
Archery (120: 13 available with Tamara listing lowest at 1.45m gold
All occurrences listed at Town Center
A single character only "needs" those items once, this is true, but is not necessarily a buyer for that item only once unless the prices are not listed for easy comparison where that person can effectively "play the market." Many of us do have "alts" that we like to play as well. If an item truly becomes "undervalued" a player can simply buy it (i.e. snipe it) and re-post it for what they deem is the "correct" value and make a profit. Both parties win. However, as it is now, most "high end" items are "grossly over-valued" due to the lack of effective pricing comparison and the healthy competition that brings. Those of us who are actively looking to flip items, or resale items perceived to carry "low-ball" prices, will most likely suffer a massive loss when those items inevitably don't resell in the currently over-inflated market.+Requiem wrote: ...
In your example, considering the buyer... for most high end items (powerscrolls, batwings, jackals etc) a person is only a buyer ONCE, then becomes a seller. So, if a new player buys Archery 120, and uses it, they no longer need it. The more it's undervalued, the less it sells when they get that particular powerscroll from a champ. So, they have to champ 2x, 3x, 4x as much, to earn those scrolls to sell, after they have one for themselves. This is where the extra work comes in. ...
When (or if) a price comparison is put in place, everyone with such "high end" items will likely take a loss from the currently perceived value that has been artificially imposed on those items. This should be expected as those prices are massively over-inflated at this time. I assume you experienced a similar effect when prices were listed for comparison in the past and thus panicked when the prices fell through the floor. This will happen. Count on it, expect it, and plan for it. All prices will stabilize to a point where the market dictates, but only in an environment where pricing is open and competitive. Farming Champs for Archery 120 power scrolls is not the only source of income in this game. When the value of those scrolls drops to a point where the market will bear and their "value" becomes normalized, that player can move on to find a more profitable venture whenever they like. They're not locked into only the one activity, nor should they ever be. The point is those scrolls are not being "undervalued" as suggested in the above quote, but rather their value is being normalized from their previously "over-valued" state.
With all due respect and please don't take this as a personal attack, for most of us, the above statement is false. Being a video game has very little to do with "unlimited" supply, folks still have to go out and farm said items and only a limited number of those items are available for sale at any one time (especially when priced competitively). However, GM abilities that allow any item to be spawned at any time is, yes, unlimited supply and will completely destroy the economy if it is over used. I am merely offering my time, thoughts, and ideas for open-minded and friendly discussion; trying to help, because I genuinely care what happens to my favorite Ultima Online shard.+Requiem wrote: ...
Also, you have to consider that being a video game, there is unlimited supply of items, and limited demand, based on the number of players.
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
and your suggestions were great with alot of theoretical padding and stuff.. as with the rest of the suggestions in this thread.. lots of good points of view that will help staff help forge a good path going forward.
having said that..
I think you should re-read requiem's post, and perhaps realize he may have been right, "with all due respect"
and I think he may come back and elaborate more fully...
unlimited supply as in.. there is zero barrier to more of anything being created, just player sweat equity
having said that..
I think you should re-read requiem's post, and perhaps realize he may have been right, "with all due respect"
and I think he may come back and elaborate more fully...
unlimited supply as in.. there is zero barrier to more of anything being created, just player sweat equity
Guildmaster: JDI - Est 2011
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
I do very much appreciate what +Requiem does here. I fully believe +R will come back and re-elaborate when time allows. I also hope that no-one takes anything I've written in my posts as disrespectful. It is not my intent. Please forgive me if I sound disrespectful in any way. I openly and wholeheartedly apologize if I have offended anyone. I can be sarcastic at times in real life, but I try to keep sarcasm out of posts. As sarcasm is rarely received well in text and can be easily misunderstood. I reiterate, my intent is to post some thoughts about the vendor system, hoping for open-minded discussion that will lead to a better gaming experience for everyone here on Excelsior.
If making cars is profitable (and it is) they will be made. But you can count on cars not being made as soon as it becomes no longer profitable to make them. If making ethereal leather armor is profitable (it could be), it will be made. Soon as it is no longer profitable to make ethereal leather armor, we see less and less available for sell. In either case existing stock may still move, but only at reduced rates. And new stock will cease to be made for sale at the "old rates". The more items that are introduced into the market for a given demand the less (not more) value they have. The less people looking for those same items also leads to lower value on those items. More people looking for less items always means higher value for those items. How is this any different just because its a video game?
Perhaps it is due to the excess of crafted items that become available when a player is learning their skill? Perhaps the runic crafting tools solve that issue to some extent. Basic crafted items do still have value, but only a small amount are needed and rarely by anyone other than the newest of players. Crafted items in game that aren't "special" are, perhaps, "unlimited" but those are generally not introduced into the market. Aren't they usually "chopped" to recover resources, or simply sold in bulk to NPC merchants in town? Maybe just tossed in the trash? The value of these items isn't usually in the profit they can bring, but in the skill gains they can provide.
I still don't see how there is an unlimited supply just because its a video game. What am I missing? Please elaborate.
Please help me to understand how this is any different from any other manufacturing in game or even in real life? Are you suggesting that in-game player time and effort has no value as it does in real life? Aren't the "zero barrier" effects merely resultant of the affect presented by the currently imposed closed market system in uoex? Do you believe they are the norm of all video game economic systems? I am suggesting that the obsolescence and devaluing is the norm of all closed market systems run amuck, not specifically to all video games. Put simply, it is an effect of not listing prices for healthy competition (as in an open market). I am happy to elaborate with empirical example on this point if asked.Yoda wrote: ...
unlimited supply as in.. there is zero barrier to more of anything being created, just player sweat equity
If making cars is profitable (and it is) they will be made. But you can count on cars not being made as soon as it becomes no longer profitable to make them. If making ethereal leather armor is profitable (it could be), it will be made. Soon as it is no longer profitable to make ethereal leather armor, we see less and less available for sell. In either case existing stock may still move, but only at reduced rates. And new stock will cease to be made for sale at the "old rates". The more items that are introduced into the market for a given demand the less (not more) value they have. The less people looking for those same items also leads to lower value on those items. More people looking for less items always means higher value for those items. How is this any different just because its a video game?
Perhaps it is due to the excess of crafted items that become available when a player is learning their skill? Perhaps the runic crafting tools solve that issue to some extent. Basic crafted items do still have value, but only a small amount are needed and rarely by anyone other than the newest of players. Crafted items in game that aren't "special" are, perhaps, "unlimited" but those are generally not introduced into the market. Aren't they usually "chopped" to recover resources, or simply sold in bulk to NPC merchants in town? Maybe just tossed in the trash? The value of these items isn't usually in the profit they can bring, but in the skill gains they can provide.
I still don't see how there is an unlimited supply just because its a video game. What am I missing? Please elaborate.
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
I thought (for better or worse) I'd weigh in.
Vendors in players homes do not work well here.
- You cannot spam in WC or in game to promote you vendor more than once per hr or more than X amount of times per day, or if a certain amount of chat has not taken place on WC between "promotions".
- You cannot mark runes and drop them all over the place like you can on OSI servers.
- Their are limited spots in the portal shops section and are expensive to purchase.
- The vendor search site is a third party site and not run or controlled by Excelsior staff, thus we have zero control
what the implement.
- Player base is less here then OSI shards, meaning less people to buy and even less that would care to search Tram, Tok, Malas and Magda to find the best deal on an item. Sometimes, a persons time is worth more than what they could pottentially save by hunting for eons.
- The days of running around Moonglow island, Luna, and the various gates to check vendor malls are not feasible here.
I do like the idea of vendors in homes not have to pay tax as this may help offset the cost to put up a gate in shops section.
Outside of that one thing, I dont think what you are proposing will work here.
IMO
Vendors in players homes do not work well here.
- You cannot spam in WC or in game to promote you vendor more than once per hr or more than X amount of times per day, or if a certain amount of chat has not taken place on WC between "promotions".
- You cannot mark runes and drop them all over the place like you can on OSI servers.
- Their are limited spots in the portal shops section and are expensive to purchase.
- The vendor search site is a third party site and not run or controlled by Excelsior staff, thus we have zero control
what the implement.
- Player base is less here then OSI shards, meaning less people to buy and even less that would care to search Tram, Tok, Malas and Magda to find the best deal on an item. Sometimes, a persons time is worth more than what they could pottentially save by hunting for eons.
- The days of running around Moonglow island, Luna, and the various gates to check vendor malls are not feasible here.
I do like the idea of vendors in homes not have to pay tax as this may help offset the cost to put up a gate in shops section.
Outside of that one thing, I dont think what you are proposing will work here.
IMO
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
In real life, there are finite resources. If you go and mine some ore, you can't go back 15 minutes later and mine more. It's gone. It's scarcity is what gives it value. In Ultima Online, you can mine an ore vein, pretty much forever. It keeps respawning, allowing infinite ore into the game world, limited only by how much is mined. As such, if things continue to devalue over time, it becomes harder and harder for newer players to actually make money, as they have less and less things to actually sell. If you are faced with an impossible goal upon creation, would you stick around and play on that particular server? I know I wouldn't.Please help me to understand how this is any different from any other manufacturing in game or even in real life? Are you suggesting that in-game player time and effort has no value as it does in real life?
We could put up a stone where you double click it, and it puts 1,000,000,000 of every item in your pack, but there would be no challenge, and thus no reason to continue playing. So, we have to figure out a way to balance things, and create scarcity. Since this isn't the real world, and resources, and other things respawn - allowing for an infinite number of <stuff> over time, we need to create scarcity in other ways. One such way is to limit spawn (once per 2 hours, for example), or limiting drop chance by some random percentage (5% of the time, it drops), or both.
Another way is by not keeping everything forever. Houses drop, stuff decays, and one thing I am personally pushing for is more item sinks. The trick is things have to be balanced, People need a reason to want to trade in something "good", but not always get something "better" at the same time, and that's hard to do. If you keep giving out better and better stuff, the original game becomes unbalanced, which creates it's own set of issues. You already see this with relayers, and pets. I don't think we need to make it any worse.
So, how can we influence the economy, without dictating prices, while combatting inflation, AND deflation at the same time, with a playerbase that changes daily?
I can tell you the answer is not by putting pricing back onto vendors.uoex.net, which was tried at first - and failed miserably (by leading to the devaluation of almost every saleable item, which wrecked the economy). As I mentioned in the OP, my idea to try to make TC more desireable, and be a place for players to trade high-end items went a little overboard, and created an imbalance of another kind, which is why we are looking into a new solution.
I do appreciate your input, and ideas about fixing things.
Also, I would like to say - when I say "vendor mall", I am not talking about Town Center, or Makoto Zento. I'm talking about player run malls out of their houses, or even single players with solo vendors. We realize there is an inequality between TC and Zento, and the rest, and likely there always will be (some differences), as keeping those places filled is a priority. That doesn't mean however, that we can't be more inline and equal between the "Server Malls" and "Player Malls".
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
So I have some thoughts which people like or dislike but I shall try none the less, huraahhh
1. The vendor system creates disparity as only those with TC vendors can really sell high end items with regularity. Most of these are older players and new slots go to those with macros to click the stool. This creates a system where new slots only go to those who "know the tricks". It also makes rich players richer and poor players are kept down. I am lucky that I am high end and can create money but I wonder how I could if I was new.
2. We need to destash and help the server.
3. There are technically infinite resources but economics is driven on available resource vs potential available capital. So lots of money and little resource drives high prices.
My idea is this
1. Create a vendor that has no %item cost built in.
2. Make this vendor available for a destash reward. I would propose only allowing articfacts (not Tokuno) or Paragon items to be allowed to be traded, though the specific is not relevant to the concept.
If we went with an idea like this, more people would run Gauntlet. Lower level players can take pets and get artis, which would now have value to richer players seeking destash items. Lower level players have an income source. Frostbringers or axe of the heavans now fetch 100-150k as opposed to sitting in chests. More Gauntlet runs also means more BCs and SoTs which makes them more affordable to the new players, I remember when they were 2-3m.
Higher end items can be sold by more people. This means more personal sales to those stocking vendors and more item availability. I currently have 1000s of EDs worth of nice things in chests because I cant easily sell them, many other will also. It would be better if we could all trade more easily.
You could also add a cash charge to the destash ticket if you wanted to take more money out of the economy.
I think this helps to balance the economy, increase available resource and also help newer player to access revenue streams.
Let the flame commence
1. The vendor system creates disparity as only those with TC vendors can really sell high end items with regularity. Most of these are older players and new slots go to those with macros to click the stool. This creates a system where new slots only go to those who "know the tricks". It also makes rich players richer and poor players are kept down. I am lucky that I am high end and can create money but I wonder how I could if I was new.
2. We need to destash and help the server.
3. There are technically infinite resources but economics is driven on available resource vs potential available capital. So lots of money and little resource drives high prices.
My idea is this
1. Create a vendor that has no %item cost built in.
2. Make this vendor available for a destash reward. I would propose only allowing articfacts (not Tokuno) or Paragon items to be allowed to be traded, though the specific is not relevant to the concept.
If we went with an idea like this, more people would run Gauntlet. Lower level players can take pets and get artis, which would now have value to richer players seeking destash items. Lower level players have an income source. Frostbringers or axe of the heavans now fetch 100-150k as opposed to sitting in chests. More Gauntlet runs also means more BCs and SoTs which makes them more affordable to the new players, I remember when they were 2-3m.
Higher end items can be sold by more people. This means more personal sales to those stocking vendors and more item availability. I currently have 1000s of EDs worth of nice things in chests because I cant easily sell them, many other will also. It would be better if we could all trade more easily.
You could also add a cash charge to the destash ticket if you wanted to take more money out of the economy.
I think this helps to balance the economy, increase available resource and also help newer player to access revenue streams.
Let the flame commence
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
That's why my goal is to balance things out a bit, and even the playing field so to speak. TC still needs (and will retain) some advantage, to keep it interesting and full, but it doesn't need to be (nor should it be) the end-all only place worthwhile to have vendors.1. The vendor system creates disparity as only those with TC vendors can really sell high end items with regularity. Most of these are older players and new slots go to those with macros to click the stool. This creates a system where new slots only go to those who "know the tricks". It also makes rich players richer and poor players are kept down. I am lucky that I am high end and can create money but I wonder how I could if I was new.
Not sure what you mean by this, but I submitted some code to +Colibri that would do just this. basically you could turn in any tokuno greater artifact, paragon artifact, or doom artifact for a chance at any of them, plus a few new ones. Waiting to see if it will be approved or not.2. Make this vendor available for a destash reward. I would propose only allowing articfacts (not Tokuno) or Paragon items to be allowed to be traded, though the specific is not relevant to the concept.
I agree with this, and would like to see more item sinks in place in many different areas.
No need for flaming.
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
Put simply, without an open system, I doubt it is even possible as stated. Considering the above statement taken literally, there are self-defeating (self-refuting or contradictory) concepts at play here. With neither a self-correcting market system (as in price listings) nor any type of artificial influence on pricing, you are eliminating most (if not all) methods of inflation control from the equation right from the start. One or the other will have to give. You wish to combat inflation without first deflating and without allowing any artificially introduced pricing influence nor even considering easily accessible price comparison for open competition. With that said, I don't believe the economic system here on Excelsior is completely "closed." Players can still price "shop" the old fashioned way by systematically visiting each vendor while logging the price of each item they're looking for. Many do this already. I use a custom "shopping macro" which does exactly that. It just takes time. And time has value in and of itself; inside the game and out.+Requiem wrote:...
So, how can we influence the economy, without dictating prices, while combatting inflation, AND deflation at the same time, with a playerbase that changes daily?
I suspect the key to the solution lays more-so in the "deflation" of the over-priced items already on vendors than it does in publicly listing those prices anyway; at least initially. The [EXEX system already does impose an artificial "lower limit" on the prices of the items that are traded there. There are fixed minimum prices already. Perhaps a way to restrict the "upper limit" on high end items is to simply add them to a gold-based vending machine with fixed purchase prices. This would effectively and permanently stop inflation on such items. A lower limit could then be set by allowing people to sell their high end items to a vending machine at a fixed rate as well. Not another [EXEX system, but a fixed system more like the vendor stones in Trinsic. Perhaps a wandering NPC vendor that responds to "vendor buy" with a list of fixed price high-end items of which they always have in stock (upper limit) or "vendor sell" to quickly feed the instant gratification bug of those who want to get paid quickly for their high-end items (as in the lower price limit) and without directly undercutting other merchants.
As much fun as it may be to beat a dead horse in game, let me just speak to this once more, then I can go ahead and let this horse rest in peace. I wasn't here when that "experiment" took place. So I can't speak to it directly. However in fairness, please ask yourself these questions: Were the items that were "devalued" actually very much over-priced to begin with? And when the economy was "wrecked", did those items end up priced at a level closer to what they were actually worth? Be honest with yourself. Maybe you've grown accustomed to items being priced at a rate much higher than they are actually worth because of a system that was (and is) already rampant with over-inflation, especially on the high-end items.+Requiem wrote:...
I can tell you the answer is not by putting pricing back onto vendors.uoex.net, which was tried at first - and failed miserably (by leading to the devaluation of almost every saleable item, which wrecked the economy).
Not listing prices globally actually makes it easier for me to "guarantee lowest prices" on any items I place for sale on my vendors. I can simply leave a book on my vendors (or use a statement in my hourly spam advert) that claims that I will "beat any price on any item by 10% just [pm me the vendor location and name for verification." YES! I will have the market cornered. *FLEX*
Here, I believe TC is destructive to the Excelsior community as a whole, because it allows high end items to be presented for sale on vendors for "real money" currency. TC is a starter area and there is the potential for the newest of players to perceive this as a "pay-to-win" mechanism. At the least, the rule-set for alternate currency vendors should be removed from TC and moved instead to MZ. Perhaps just swap the rule sets of the two premium market places. Allow alternate currency at MZ only and gold only currency at TC (and elsewhere).+Requiem wrote:As I mentioned in the OP, my idea to try to make TC more desireable, and be a place for players to trade high-end items went a little overboard, and created an imbalance of another kind, which is why we are looking into a new solution.
And back quickly to the discussion of private vendors at player homes, I agree, they need a good overhaul to be more competitive with the premium player malls. I still like the idea of removing the taxes and weekly (daily) vendor upkeep. Simply remove all taxes and rental fees, instead impose a non-refundable "posting" fee (with a 3-day lock) for any item on all player vendor types. I'll take the hit here, as I would no longer be able to undercut all prices as easily and effectively as is possible now.
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
*Applies bandages to dead horse*
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
1) Definitely agree with removing the daily fees.
2) I am not a big fan of this idea as it stands. The most irritating thing (to me) is having the "Shops" tab filled with "guild malls" that have zero player vendors, and only have repair deeds and a couple NPC's for BODs. It's basically a shortcut to a hub usable by specific players, with trainers, crafting/botting setups, and the like.
On the flip side, though, I like that vendor malls with vendors that haven't been updated since 2017 would technically have to pay more for keeping those vendors around. That would force vendor mall owners to keep the vendors updated, and clean up some of those lingering empty vendors.
3) This is interesting, because it would essentially force players to keep their prices at a level where someone might actually purchase it. No more posting overpriced wares for sale without consequence. This is honestly the best (and possibly ONLY) way to level out the pricing and make it the most fair for new players and veterans alike. Most importantly, it would remove some of the overwhelming (and unnecessary) prices from the Town Center vendors, giving newer players a more realistic price range for every item being sold.
A quick note, though. This could be a bad thing, or a good thing.
The good side of it, it would encourage better time management for players wishing to sell items to other players, because they would focus on selling popular goods, and wouldn't bother crafting or hunting for the unpopular wares.
The bad side of it, is that crafters would never make ANY gold, due to the fact that items like wooden chairs, tables, and... well... MOST crafted items, would never be put on vendors. These items don't sell after a week, sometimes not even a month. But when the right new player comes along and wants to decorate their home, they will be forced to raise their skills and craft their own stuff because of the lack of crafted items, as most players would fear they would be charged if their goods didn't find a home.
I may be looking at it from a bad angle, but I would love to see this work out somehow. Maybe items worth under 10,000 gold would not get removed after so long? It would keep the small bulk items in play, with no worry of your bank filling up because nobody wanted your 70+ MiBs. As I said, I could be looking at this totally wrong, too.
4) A new management system for vendors would be awesome. A new gump menu, possibly? I'd love to see where this idea could go.
5) This is a very confusing, but interesting concept. I'd have to know the final decision on what the actual perks will be before I would say I am 100% behind this, because this could make or break the whole vendor mall system. For example, renting an auction stone or a raffle table wouldn't be very good perks, mainly due to the act of having to RENT them, rather than have access to them. I'd like to see it built more around a reward, rather than a "paid access" perk. Like, "once a month" for raffle and "once a week" for auction uses would be cool. Maybe one free use bi-weekly. The reason I say this is because people can (and HAVE) host their own raffles and auctions for free by putting books and items on tables and chests nearby to place bids in. I understand it would be easier and more organized if one had access to the stone and table, but unless it's 50k gold, I can't see much use out of this. I could be entirely wrong though, I just wanted to throw out that warning when it comes to these perks. I'm sure you guys don't want to make a vendor perk system from scratch and have it go unused or forgotten almost immediately.
6) I can officially say... although I am VERY used to the Town Center layout... I am also VERY TIRED of the Town Center layout. It's a little difficult to find all the usable gates (I would estimate around 30% of all players even know WHAT the Game Room Royale is, let alone where to find the teleporter for it), and I am sure TK and TC can be combined to make a section of space with multiple levels of vendors, and a whole gate area for miscellaneous places (or put all but the "New Player Room" on the world teleporter).
Could also put an official event area in Town Center, where the NPC to begin quests can go, and/or the event vendor stones and a portal to the rewards area. It would make much more sense to do this in my opinion, that way everyone doesn't have to "struggle" (lol) to find what event starts where. I dunno. Just a suggestion.
I'll leave my ideas there for now, I suppose.
2) I am not a big fan of this idea as it stands. The most irritating thing (to me) is having the "Shops" tab filled with "guild malls" that have zero player vendors, and only have repair deeds and a couple NPC's for BODs. It's basically a shortcut to a hub usable by specific players, with trainers, crafting/botting setups, and the like.
On the flip side, though, I like that vendor malls with vendors that haven't been updated since 2017 would technically have to pay more for keeping those vendors around. That would force vendor mall owners to keep the vendors updated, and clean up some of those lingering empty vendors.
3) This is interesting, because it would essentially force players to keep their prices at a level where someone might actually purchase it. No more posting overpriced wares for sale without consequence. This is honestly the best (and possibly ONLY) way to level out the pricing and make it the most fair for new players and veterans alike. Most importantly, it would remove some of the overwhelming (and unnecessary) prices from the Town Center vendors, giving newer players a more realistic price range for every item being sold.
A quick note, though. This could be a bad thing, or a good thing.
The good side of it, it would encourage better time management for players wishing to sell items to other players, because they would focus on selling popular goods, and wouldn't bother crafting or hunting for the unpopular wares.
The bad side of it, is that crafters would never make ANY gold, due to the fact that items like wooden chairs, tables, and... well... MOST crafted items, would never be put on vendors. These items don't sell after a week, sometimes not even a month. But when the right new player comes along and wants to decorate their home, they will be forced to raise their skills and craft their own stuff because of the lack of crafted items, as most players would fear they would be charged if their goods didn't find a home.
I may be looking at it from a bad angle, but I would love to see this work out somehow. Maybe items worth under 10,000 gold would not get removed after so long? It would keep the small bulk items in play, with no worry of your bank filling up because nobody wanted your 70+ MiBs. As I said, I could be looking at this totally wrong, too.
4) A new management system for vendors would be awesome. A new gump menu, possibly? I'd love to see where this idea could go.
5) This is a very confusing, but interesting concept. I'd have to know the final decision on what the actual perks will be before I would say I am 100% behind this, because this could make or break the whole vendor mall system. For example, renting an auction stone or a raffle table wouldn't be very good perks, mainly due to the act of having to RENT them, rather than have access to them. I'd like to see it built more around a reward, rather than a "paid access" perk. Like, "once a month" for raffle and "once a week" for auction uses would be cool. Maybe one free use bi-weekly. The reason I say this is because people can (and HAVE) host their own raffles and auctions for free by putting books and items on tables and chests nearby to place bids in. I understand it would be easier and more organized if one had access to the stone and table, but unless it's 50k gold, I can't see much use out of this. I could be entirely wrong though, I just wanted to throw out that warning when it comes to these perks. I'm sure you guys don't want to make a vendor perk system from scratch and have it go unused or forgotten almost immediately.
6) I can officially say... although I am VERY used to the Town Center layout... I am also VERY TIRED of the Town Center layout. It's a little difficult to find all the usable gates (I would estimate around 30% of all players even know WHAT the Game Room Royale is, let alone where to find the teleporter for it), and I am sure TK and TC can be combined to make a section of space with multiple levels of vendors, and a whole gate area for miscellaneous places (or put all but the "New Player Room" on the world teleporter).
Could also put an official event area in Town Center, where the NPC to begin quests can go, and/or the event vendor stones and a portal to the rewards area. It would make much more sense to do this in my opinion, that way everyone doesn't have to "struggle" (lol) to find what event starts where. I dunno. Just a suggestion.
I'll leave my ideas there for now, I suppose.
'Deadwerd' in game, 'Deadwerd' onstage.
Re: Vendor Malls 2.0
Charon wrote:*Applies bandages to dead horse*
120 Vet to the rescue
Absolutely there should be daily fees, call it the cost of doing business. Lower priced items say under 2k should have no fee, higher priced the higher the fee.
If you want prices normalized, sell your items at a lower price than everyone else, its really that simple.
You will sell yours they won't either your competitors adapt or lose money, just like any other business.