Variable recall cooldown

[Geriatric]

greenbar brought up some really good reasons why the recalling method probably isnt the best idea

so really having a little bit more balance in monster gold drops would be the best bet

time for me to get a little bit nostalgic
i recall back in the older days balrons dropping around 2200 gold, they still had their fair share of farmers
but i remember the older days quite well, this is on OSI servers mind you..

earth eles would drop around 250 to 280 gold, they only drop around 140 gold here
demons would drop approximately 500, here its only 250
elder gazers 700, here its 400

infact nearly every single mob has had its average gold drop halved by comparison
except for balrons, which seem to have been trippled

[Muolke]

As stated in the other thread, there are a couple of chronic AFKers who already use rails (it's funny to see them stuck in fel deceit when their script bugs out) or use no rails and just AFK at the gnaw or fel Wrong. Policing should be the bigger priority.

That said, I am not against the proposed change, just debating whether it is worth it. Mark my words, we will be having a debate about whether we should be lowering the mob intensity in Fel Wrong within 12 months...

There are posts that bring up the issue of the Balron farming more than 10 years old. It’s always been somewhat of an issue but nobody was shelling out 700-800 million gold for a Totem at auction either so…

I do find it interesting that it took me finding someone to write a script and make it available for sale to actually get to the point we’re at with potential change happening soon.

Wrong is a good farming spot but there seems to always be 2-3 other players there nowadays. Between Paroxysmus running his rail script and the players that camp out under the archways it’s actually more lucrative to run the Balron script if there’s 2 or less players doing it.

[Alibaster]

As someone that has only recently started on the Balron farming train, I was amazed at how much gold I could get in a relatively short amount of time. Then after using the free Orion script posted in the forums the other day, it's been turbo charged. As much as I enjoy the infusion of gold, this area is just too easy to get stupid amounts of gold in a short period of time. I live by the K.I.S.S. philosophy, keep it simple stupid. Nerfing the gold and spawn rate of the Balrons will fix the issue. Changing recalling will have a shard wide impact with issues we may not foresee. If another area becomes exploited over time then we can deal with that issue when it comes up. As I understand it, the auctions exist as a way to drain gold. It's not possible to drain something when the hose is left on full blast. Turning off the hose (Balrons gold drop) may help the overall economy as well.

[Wil]

Nerfing Balrons is a bandaid on a stab wound. If the next best mobs drop 2k instead of 8k, script farming will just continue at a still-outrageous rate. And as many have pointed out, adjusting the recall timers will just push the scripts to recall less and run more, without major impact on the gold collection rate.

We need a solution that's self-adjusting based on player behavior so that -repetition- has diminishing returns.

[Alibaster]

Nerfing Balrons is a bandaid on a stab wound. If the next best mobs drop 2k instead of 8k, script farming will just continue at a still-outrageous rate. And as many have pointed out, adjusting the recall timers will just push the scripts to recall less and run more, without major impact on the gold collection rate.

We need a solution that's self-adjusting based on player behavior so that -repetition- has diminishing returns.

I agree your idea is a sold fix. I don't know anything about coding but I suspect adjusting drop rates and spawn times can be done a lot faster then what you propose. So why not do the quick fix now while working on a long term solution that is self-adjusting based on player behavior. The sooner something is done the better.

[Muolke]

Nerfing Balrons is a bandaid on a stab wound. If the next best mobs drop 2k instead of 8k, script farming will just continue at a still-outrageous rate. And as many have pointed out, adjusting the recall timers will just push the scripts to recall less and run more, without major impact on the gold collection rate.

We need a solution that's self-adjusting based on player behavior so that -repetition- has diminishing returns.

A bandaid that would help. The key is increased AFK checks and more complex AFK checks that aren’t as easy to cheat.

Punishing a player that farms for 1 hour in a row rather than someone that farms for 15 minutes but does it 4 times a day with breaks in between makes no sense to me.

This would also punish players in the most common timezones (US & Canada) and reward those in Europe and Asia as there’s less players on at that time.

[Wil]

So why not do the quick fix now while working on a long term solution that is self-adjusting based on player behavior.

You have asked exactly the correct question.

I'm a staunch believer in cost-effective. If a relatively easy stop-gap solution can buy the time to implement something that lasts, it's worth doing. So what is the cost of nerfing balrons? And how effective can we expect it to be?

Well, there's a direct cost in +C going around to each Balron and adjusting its parameters. There's also an indirect cost in upsetting the game balance. Farmers won't just stop farming; they'll adapt. How will it affect the scales between new and old money? Will the farmers intrude on what was previously non-farming areas the casual players enjoyed? Would the rich stay rich while everybody else has a harder time getting there? Where will the game balance out now? The risk cost of this simple change is substantial.

So would it be effective enough for long enough to justify the substantial risk-cost? I'm a scripter and I'm pretty good at it. When +Arden nerfed the bees years ago, I was back up and running in 36 hours. If he hadn't done it in the middle of the week when I had to work, I'd have recovered sooner. 36 hours. That's the duration of primary effectiveness you can expect from nerfing the balrons.

There's also a duration of secondary effectiveness in which the scripters are back up and running but the non-scripters haven't begged or bought a copy yet. That's maybe weeks long. Maybe. And then it's done. You have all the direct and indirect cost from the change but the short-term effectiveness has dropped to zero.

Would it be cost-effective to statically nerf balrons? In my assessment it would not.

[arni]

Nerfing the gold and spawn rate of the Balrons will fix the issue.

how all it will do is push scripters to more areas they can recall to so taking all the current casual spots away from casual and new players.
simple put x number of players going for x number of spots nerf those spots x players still going to farm them but go to other spots as well

the simplest solution is not nerfing gold but nerfing scripting itself without a blanket ban on scripting giving them a recalling delay system is a sensible solution.

yes i understand this will effect everyone that recalls in any type of resource farming but this will have minimal effect on the majority of casual or new players. but seeing fully relayed players porting in to elder gazer areas will have a drastic effect on the casual players pushing them further down the economy.
so keeping the rich rich while the poor get poorer in relation

[MarkM]

Pretty sure with ____ script release to public, Balron's are not always being farmed! **In Response To Earlier Post** ((2AM CST and still here farming 4AM nobody else has come)) - ____ the only one I see during this time Balron farming the last two days so he's still making good gold even after releasing the script. It effected those when he's not farming basically so he's still making good income for several hours. My view on this is.. IT IS WHAT IT IS.. You change anything people gonna complain.. YOU don't change anything people gonna complain! You cannot make everyone happy it's just the way of life. ________________________ I think +C should be working on other things than Variable cooldowns because no matter what gets done people will find a way around it regardless. BTW! I've noticed while I had a shift change in RL and when I can be on, that from 10PM CST-6AM or later AFK checks do not exist at all (3 Weeks of farming personally during these hours non stop with 0 AFK checks).. Is this why ((Removed for John)) and others farm during this time Maybe a NEW GM that can be on during these hours would be a good thing perhaps? We are more worried about when most people can be on than when barely anyone is on.. Which is when some of the top tier players are hard at work making that gold with no other contenders without anyone else realizing. ** BTW +C your random Green HUGE blood elemental AFK check (9PM CST time) two days before auction asking what color am I was good! First time i've seen something other than what day is it.**

[Muolke]

Pretty sure with ZeeeQi's script release to public, Balron's are not always being farmed! **In Response To Earlier Post** ((2AM CST and still here farming 4AM nobody else has come)) - ZeeeQi's the only one I see during this time Balron farming the last two days so he's still making good gold even after releasing the script. It effected those when he's not farming basically so he's still making good income for several hours. My view on this is.. IT IS WHAT IT IS.. You change anything people gonna complain.. YOU don't change anything people gonna complain! You cannot make everyone happy it's just the way of life. I rather be doing something else right now but i'm doing a public service by taking nearly half of ZeeeQi's income currently . I think +C should be working on other things than Variable cooldowns because no matter what gets done people will find a way around it regardless. BTW! I've noticed while I had a shift change in RL and when I can be on, that from 10PM CST-6AM or later AFK checks do not exist at all (3 Weeks of farming personally during these hours non stop with 0 AFK checks).. Is this why Parox and others farm during this time Maybe a NEW GM that can be on during these hours would be a good thing perhaps? We are more worried about when most people can be on than when barely anyone is on.. Which is when some of the top tier players are hard at work making that gold with no other contenders without anyone else realizing. ** BTW +C your random Green HUGE blood elemental AFK check (9PM CST time) two days before auction asking what color am I was good! First time i've seen something other than what day is it.**

This is part of the reason why having dynamic loot based on how long a creature has been alive just isn’t a good solution . Players in Europe and Asia that play when its the middle of the night in North America will gain an advantage due to the fact that a vast majority of our player base is based in North America.

[Turnabout]

Don't ruin the recall system, if you feel the need to do something drop down the gold from mobs on "markable" spots. Do it the easy way, no need of complicate coding. Also "working" on the recall system will not solve the problem of players running AFK macro/scripts on places like Citadel, Wrong or Twisted Weald where the recall spell isn't used at all.

[sarmatian]

I would like to see "eject timeout" in Gauntlet.
Every time I pass there it show both boxes "busy" yes it is like with toilet during concert.
You get in, have fun and get out, not waiting there when you return from work.

[Gaara]

Option: Simple tracking of last number of recalls in X minutes

Unless this is tied to specific locations (like high end gold farm places) it hurts the entire shard.

Option: Another way, to make it similar to the Felucca mana drain

Hurts new players/medium geared players way too much.

My suggestions is to drop the range of gold dropped

Better option would be to buff other areas (or introduce new areas to farm gold in), not nerf the amount you get.

Best option IMO would be to have the recall timer but only in specific high traffic areas so it wouldn't disturb rest of the shard.

[ButteryBiscuits]

Seems like there is actually a lot of agreement on a few points.... correct me if I am wrong on this:

1. Shard-wide recall delays will damage too many non-farming activities to be a "best" solution. In the US, governments need to prove that whatever laws they passed are the least-restrictive way of accomplishing their goal. To create a solution that punishes the 99% of players on the shard that are not balron farming just to punish the 10ish regular players hunting ballys seems like overkill.

2. Both shard-wide recall delays and mana drain options will disproportionately hurt young, early level and mid level players. Young and early-level can't even do ballys. Mid-level may have a couple relayers and or pets and a decent weapon... but it takes quite a while to kill things (comparatively). Any gold they get out of ballys takes a long time (comparatively) and is well earned.

3. Someone above mentioned leaving someone with no mana is particularly egregious. Reminds me of a sign on a fence my son sent me: Being on the other side of this fence is like sandpapering a lion's (bottom) while wearing pork chop panties. Kind of like being in the middle of a mob with no mana to fight or get out of there.

4. Having scripts available has increased the number of players farming balrons to the point where they are no longer the best option. This was always true if there were at least two people in there... there are numerous areas that will give you more gold per hour. There are places that give you more gold per hour compared to being the ONLY one in fighting the balrons. Max balron drop is 7500 i believe but that is not the normal drop. Most drop around 2k. If you are fighting over them with other people you are not going to make the "obscene" amount people are claiming you can make. And there are fewer times now where you can squeak in even an hour of "alone time" with them. So if the whole point of this was to keep one or two people from banking on the ballys.... that problem done fixed itself.

5. Scripters going to script but more importantly, players going to play. If you trash something, we will find the next better thing. That is part of the game play. 36 hours to compensate? Maybe not even that.

6. This is an older game and has a lower fan base than newer games. We struggle to attract new players and we struggle to keep them. There is a huge gap between the older veterans and the younger players leading to jealousy and resentment. Creating a nerf that limits veterans from accumulating gold will keep less equipped players from accumulating gold as well- but will be harder for them to overcome. Thus increasing the divide between the two groups.

7. Balron gold drops are out of alignment with other mobs on the shard.
a. Some want to decrease the balron drops-
My view on this is two fold-
Going back to Point Two... the ones hurt the most by nerfing the balrons are the non-vets: early mid to early end level. The vets already have big bank accounts, fully relayered and really good weapons. There is nothing they really NEED to buy... everything is just a tweak. This is where you see a lot of 2-3 year old players working to save up for those big ticket auction items. I count myself in that class. Relayered and a decent weapon trying to save up money to get the next step up in weapons. I hardly ever see older vets in there unless they have been off for quite awhile and are building back up. Until John Warren tested Zeee's script when it was posted, i can count on one hand the number of times I have seen him in there over the last couple years. They have other places they can go that earn more gold and are more challenging.
The other is that decreasing balron gold just continues the repressed funds available on the shard overall. Anyone who watches vendors know the prices for items has gone down. This does not help that. Who it does help is the ones who donate and sell the ED. With reduced gold available, the ED is worth more relatively. Up until lately ED were running around 60k. A few years ago they were at 30k. This creates an incentive for pay to play as you can double your gold and drive up auction prices more than others are able to pay based on what they can earn in-game.

b. Some want to rebalance the drops of the other mobs thus reducing the pressure to farm balrons.
In my mind this is a better option, this increases the amounts early and mid level players can get starting even at mongbats and skeletons. This creates a more vibrant economy, raising prices for items. And yes may even have more competition at auctions (I know, shooting myself in the foot here). But the competition would be among players- whether they are hot-key jockeys or scripters extra-ordinaire- rather than giving the advantage to those who donate to play.

Another long-winded post. Who knows if any of this will make any difference but I appreciate the opportunity to participate in the discussion +C, regardless of what you end up doing.

[Johnny Warren]

Pretty sure with ZeeeQi's script release to public, Balron's are not always being farmed! **In Response To Earlier Post** ((2AM CST and still here farming 4AM nobody else has come)) - ZeeeQi's the only one I see during this time Balron farming the last two days so he's still making good gold even after releasing the script. It effected those when he's not farming basically so he's still making good income for several hours. My view on this is.. IT IS WHAT IT IS.. You change anything people gonna complain.. YOU don't change anything people gonna complain! You cannot make everyone happy it's just the way of life. I rather be doing something else right now but i'm doing a public service by taking nearly half of ZeeeQi's income currently . I think +C should be working on other things than Variable cooldowns because no matter what gets done people will find a way around it regardless. BTW! I've noticed while I had a shift change in RL and when I can be on, that from 10PM CST-6AM or later AFK checks do not exist at all (3 Weeks of farming personally during these hours non stop with 0 AFK checks).. Is this why Parox and others farm during this time Maybe a NEW GM that can be on during these hours would be a good thing perhaps? We are more worried about when most people can be on than when barely anyone is on.. Which is when some of the top tier players are hard at work making that gold with no other contenders without anyone else realizing. ** BTW +C your random Green HUGE blood elemental AFK check (9PM CST time) two days before auction asking what color am I was good! First time i've seen something other than what day is it.**

Couple of points: 1) You whining about timezones is really low, as someone who has to manipulate RL work etc to attend any auction due to thhem being timed best of US/EU players makes me mad. Take the good with the bad. If I get a few hours of fewer players competitng for a spawn, that's excellent, but it doesn't make up for the fast the other 90% of the time I am shafted.

2) Naming and, attempting to shame, especially by making an inference some players are choosing the time they do activities to avoid scrutiny, is exceptionally low form. Scummy even. We have some unwritten forum etiquette here, notice nobody else is naming players. This kind of highlights the point to your post, that you are here to "take down" certain players, not add constructively to the argument.

Back to some general comments on this thread.

There seems to be an argument for "Punishing a player because they play the game too much". Constant reminders that they "play for hours farming gold" I understand it is frustrating that I can't play as much as I want, and you all feel the same. But this is not a fair or valid argument. It's a rather stupid one.

The other big thing that is i believe being overlooked, now that ZeeeQi has been named, is the discrepency in the perceived wealth gain vs the actual reality. We all have the auction data. ZeeeQi, paroxysmus and others you have mentioned ARE NOT SPENDING THE MOST GOLD AT THESE AUCTIONS. So, if their methods are annoying you, then you must be really mad at the few top dogs who spend significantly more, right? No, you're not annoyed at them. Because you've bought into the faux rage that a few players continue to stir around the "issue" of ballys. If you read the auction data you should be laying serious questions on how thhe real big spenders get their gold, we should be nerfing that, right? If this is actually about the good of the economy then there is an obvious problem, bigger than balrons, damaging it. Balrons is a distraction so the rich get richer and young players like ZeeeQi and Paroxysmus are struggling to catch up.

Last point, with ZeeeQi releasing the script for free (not charging 10s of millions for it like the other thread) and offering to help set it up, 100% of players now have access to this same wealth source. So, the problem is literally solved and +C can get back to much more important things, like FREEING THHE HUES! You cannot logically deny this statement is correct. If you do, you are really making a statement like "tell them to stop playing the game better than me". You wouldn't tell Daigo to stop using a shoriuken in Street fighter, because you couldn't beat him, right? If we take this balron problem and apply the ad infinitum argument to it, we will in a few months be saying, nerf X... a few months later, nerf Y, etc, ad infinitum. At some point we must all acknowledge there will always be more and less efficient ways to obtain gold in this game. Some of the posts have made it clear this is not actually about balrons being a problem, but that some of us, through lifestyle choices, can play the game for more hours than others and some players are annoyed at that.

EDIT: I Just noticed the auction data and actual wealth has been posted in the other thread on this topic. Logic dictates the discussion will turn at this point, right? Since we can now see the balrons are not the main problem, something else is... if this argument is actually about economy and not about keeping younger players poorer than the older ones...