To curse or not to curse?

[Rune]

amen to that Veritas,behavior and morals should be common sense


btw Heck Hounds almost me spill my coffee

[Orbit Storm]

Let’s take a look at the codex...
(http://www.uoex.net/codex, under "6. Behavior, attitude towards other players")
c. No drama. Accept the things you cannot change. If you are in an unresolvable conflict, be the smart one and walk away. Keep the private problems out of public chats, send a private message instead.

-Indeed.. but from my understanding, that doesn't pertain to the issue at hand.. that issue being Dimir's friend being jailed for questionable language.

We warn first, unless you share a really explicit thing first. In which case, we will likely jail for an hour. If this upsets you, that’s unfortunate. Joining this shard and playing on it is an automatic agreement to follow the rules of the shard, and you subject yourself to the judgment of the staff member(s) online at the time. There is not enough space in the codex to outline every situation and say its wrong, so common sense and reasoning is necessary when interpreting a situation and its status with the codex.

-Aye, but see... I never suggested outlining every situation, but merely outlining the more... controversial words.

We do not jail players “on a whim.”

-That was a more... theoretical statement..

We have a system of checks and balances where we check with the other staff members and ask them for their opinions on the matter. This includes me, a seer, asking a counselor about the fairness of my actions. Also, we need to keep our actions in check because the coordinating administrator, Colibri, always follows up with punishments. It’s not as if we have free reign.

-Which is wonderful to know. As I stated before, every staff member can interpret each rule as they see fit. I never questioned the judgment of staff, but merely pointed out that one player could get jailed for the very same thing another staffer might let them slip on.

*I realize people drink alcohol, I being one of them, and that children see this in restaurants and family get-togethers. However, talking about irresponsible behavior with alcohol is not allowed.

-Not that I have a problem with this rule... but couldn't one argue the same could apply to both drugs and sex?

Sex:
No. Just no. Nobody wants to hear about it, or at least most don’t want to hear it. Talking about how hot an actor or actress is, is one thing. Detail is quite another. Vagueness and general commentary is your best friend for topics like this. So, let’s say:

-Well, to me.. saying someone is "sexxi" in open chat just shouldn't be permissible, regardless of the intentions. If other things such as the simple use of the word "weed" isn't allowed, then why should this?
(This is the ONLY thing I won't change my view on. I could care less about what someone thinks of someone else in terms of attractiveness..)

Telling someone to “go to hell”, is deemed a personal attack.

-Aye.. well then how are less "vulgar" attacks not as frowned upon? I've seen clever flames in open chat as well in "over the head" chat, and nothing was ever said or done. Just a thought...

I have yet to see anyone say, “Hold on, I am unpacking my ass (jackass) at Brit bank so I can shrink it.” So, until that day comes that it is consistently used in the right context, I will see the word “Ass” as a swear word that I will warn against using. Also, calling someone a “jackass” may not be deemed as swearing, it is a personal attack.

-Glad I wasn't drinking anything here... rofl. I certainly see your point... But it still begs to question how others may see it. This is one of the words I'm speaking of being, controversial. Each person will take it an entirely different way, sadly..

Sigh…anything you can foresee yourself getting in trouble for using, just don’t use it. If you use it, accept the consequences from not being able to use common sense and listening to staff warnings.

-Exactly what I pointed out in my initial post..

Soliciting Other Shards:
This is for all methods of communication used in the shard and outside the client, but part of the shard (Global Chat, Overhead Chat, Private Messages, Guild Chat, Party Chat, Using books and passing them out, Forum, Ventrilo). A Ford car lot wouldn’t let a Honda salesman work their floor, why should we allow the competition to advertise here?

-Very well said.. advertising of another should should be an instant permaban.. period..


===========================

Now.. here's an interesting one for you..

If one were to be in their OWN[/n] house, and someone would come into said house, WITH or WITHOUT permission.. or even stand outside and witness "vulgarity" inside between 2 players who are fine with it.. is it in the practice of staff to jail the two inside the house? Despite being in their own home?

(No, I haven't had this happen to me, nor heard of any such situation. I'm simply trying to assess how staff would handle an action that, for all intents and purposes, couldn't be more controversial )

[Undertaker]

lol... nice oribit... especially the ending... reminds me of the time when i was listening to the radio and heres the story:

Male wakes up in the morning (at 5am) an walks downstairs in HIS own kitchen to make some coffee- Naked... Female trespassor with her young daughter in HIS back yard, sees the Male making coffee naked, she calls the cops and the Male gets arrested...

just goes to show Not everyone has common sense, nor yields to it... so in my point of view, getting jailed an getting the reponse "you should have used common sense" is unfair to me anyways, getting jailed in the codex that doesnt even state "USE COMMON SENSE" some people get jailed and get told to Use Common Sense... kinda like the radio story, if the cops used common sense they would have arrested that trespassing female WITH her young daughter at 5 in the morning, or if not arrested, atleast questioned... nothing ever came of it.... few posts above someone mentioned the codex should be in a detailed format, becuz rules have to be detailed, you cant have one rule, an behind that rule in a hidden context that says 10 more rules behind it, and expect to know that, and say "you should have used common sense" -- What?, where does it say use common sense?! --

i can keep on, but i mostly just wanted to share that lil radio story, i thought it might roll along with this topic

[+Rayne]

-Indeed.. but from my understanding, that doesn't pertain to the issue at hand.. that issue being Dimir's friend being jailed for questionable language.

You need to stop perpetuating this. You were not present, nor are you to be privy to the facts of the incident.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We as staff are not here to explain the obvious. We are very busy people who work very hard both irl as well as in running Excelsior. The codex coupled with common sense is crystal clear; no need for, "but what if...", "well what about...", "is that relevant if..." Furthermore, if one is here to focus on the line drawn in the sand and to see how closely one can walk that line, then this is not the place for you. One's goal should be to stay as far away from that line as possible and spend more time participating in positive gaming interactions.

The line is strong, and theoretically on fire. One does not have to cross the line but merely tread right beside it to get burned. It is really quite simple to avoid.

Oh yeah, just because children hear swear words, sexual references, and drug/alcohol use references on a daily basis, is not a rationale for having it on here.

-V

+Rayne

[Orbit Storm]

You need to stop perpetuating this. You were not present, nor are you to be privy to the facts of the incident.

I don't think that any form of curtness was necessary. To be frank, it felt disrespectful.

Dimir posted a topic, that, last time I checked, was open for discussion.

One, its in the General Discussion board.. which happens to be on a public forum.

Two.. if it wasn't open for discussion, it should have been promptly removed.

Regardless of a server's "rules", one is entitled to their opinion. In no way am I trying to disrespect Veritas, nor you, Rayne; however take it as you see it. A lot of things have obviously been taken out of context in this thread.

I merely pointed out some facts and some thoughts. All of my rationale revolved around the bits and pieces I was trying to put together from Dimir's story. In short, I tried to offer advice, and constructive criticism on the situation.

If I'm not free to debate a subject that wasn't locked, and if I'm not free to question staff's stance on a particular topic, then you should incidentally tell me so, so that I may move on from both this forum and shard.

I came here to play, to have fun, and to do it via communication with other members on the server, but I'm not prepared to tolerate disrespect.

Next time, if you don't want a topic openly and heatedly debated, I suggest locking the thread instead of attempting to verbally lash someone for replying to it. (Especially considering I'm not the only one.) This thread has been open for well over 24 hours. I've seen more than one thread with claims that staff is on this forum multiple times daily.. then why hasn't the thread been removed, or at the very least... locked? You're only inviting other players to reply to this thread with their own thoughts and opinions.

Furthermore.. your reply seemed to be more of an insinuation as to where I stand on particular subjects, and I do not appreciate that. I simply offered up my "2 cents", which judging by your reply, must not matter much here.

Now... if my reply warrants you to "ban" me, or whatever rashness crosses your mind, then so be it. I've enjoyed my stay here thus far, and wouldn't mind staying around. But leaving a thread unlocked, and then reprimanding me for replying to it, just won't sit well with me. It doesn't matter what country this server is from, the basic rules of common etiquette and decency still apply, unless you choose the immoral path of life.

~Orbit

[Dimir]

Sooo.. How about stealthing in, then jumping in ahead of people at a boss spawn, then conveniently acting like you did not know any better? In the process, carrying a very arrogant and belligerent attitude toward the group of people you violated? That also looks like a personal attack to me.

[Undertaker]

like +Rayne stated in the moment, there was a misunderstanding... and to my knowledge, group #1 was currently killing slaarion upstairs, and group #2 was down stairs at the time of the respawn... it looks like they were taking turns... and at the end the whole "no hard feelings" everyone exchanged was very nice... so this thread is goin down a nasty road, an it can easily be avoided if the ones holding a grudge can forgive/forget, just as +Collibri always says and move on... and if not then the staff needs to be taking action pretty soon if the ones cannot simply "let it go"... and maybe lock this thread

[Orbit Storm]

lol... nice oribit... especially the ending... reminds me of the time when i was listening to the radio...

-Aye.. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the movie "Liar Liar", but in one scene, Jim Carrey's assistant tells a tale of a robber falling through her friend's kitchen ceiling, landing on a cutting board, and cutting his leg. Apparently the robber sued and was awarded damages. Sad, right?

Granted both of our stories are slightly OT, it still makes a point to my question, which based upon Rayne's rather contentious reply, apparently is irrelevant.

so in my point of view, getting jailed an getting the reponse "you should have used common sense" is unfair to me anyways, getting jailed in the codex that doesnt even state "USE COMMON SENSE"...

-Well sadly, it does state "use common sense". Despite the fact I understand that distinctly, it's still vague. This is a family shard, correct? How are you going to tell an 8 year old child, for example, to "use common sense"? Unless of course staff is in the practice of not holding children accountable for their actions.

I'm not disagreeing with the rule, but vagueness is never justifiable.

Sooo.. How about stealthing in, then jumping in ahead of people at a boss spawn, then conveniently acting like you did not know any better? In the process, carrying a very arrogant and belligerent attitude toward the group of people you violated? That also looks like a personal attack to me.

-I'd suggest not even posing the question, as apparently it is "perpetual" and irrelevant. Frankly, I'm disappointed that this thread has gone in the direction it has.

I'm happy that I can relish in the fact, I'm not the only one with opinions, and who feels as though we should have our right to them.

like +Rayne stated in the moment, there was a misunderstanding...

-In a quick reply to this post (as you posted it as I was typing this one ), I'd just like to say that you're correct. But my issue never was, and still isn't an opposition to Dimir's friend being disciplined. It's more on the method, and the way my posts have been disrespected.

=====

Now that I've stated that much.. I feel that I am done in this thread unless something is directed to me. Until such time, I think I need some time to cool off, as one certain post has "tripped my trigger" so-to-speak.

[Dimir]

Yeah. It's over and done with. I did not mean to hold a grudge, but I guess I let personal view on the issue get to me. Nothing personal against the other party either. The "no hard feelings" thing was indeed nice.
I respect the decisions made by the staff involved, and hope that this situation, in the future, can be avoided.

[+Veritas]

Sigh…

+Veritas wrote:Let’s take a look at the codex...
(http://www.uoex.net/codex, under "6. Behavior, attitude towards other players")
c. No drama. Accept the things you cannot change. If you are in an unresolvable conflict, be the smart one and walk away. Keep the private problems out of public chats, send a private message instead.

Orbit Storm Wrote: - Indeed.. but from my understanding, that doesn't pertain to the issue at hand.. that issue being Dimir's friend being jailed for questionable language.

How would anyone but the staff and the individual player know anything about this issue at hand? From what a guild member posted? Chances are he didn’t know exactly what happened, it didn’t happen to him. So, looking at this chain of sources for the argument…what makes someone who’s only criteria for having a ticket to a discussion, a 2nd hand version of what “happened”, think they have the right to a discussion regarding something that is between staff and a single player? This has been explained may times before. We do not discuss the corrective actions between players and staff. They are private, they are private to protect the player who committed the offense. They are there, because otherwise we would release a statement to the whole shard explaining what happened to a player who violated a rule, upon request. Then, because of this mistake, he or she would probably have to deal with social alienation and a lack of business…depending on the nature of the offense. That is exactly why we do not discuss the nature of offenses.

+Veritas wrote:We warn first, unless you share a really explicit thing first. In which case, we will likely jail for an hour. If this upsets you, that’s unfortunate. Joining this shard and playing on it is an automatic agreement to follow the rules of the shard, and you subject yourself to the judgment of the staff member(s) online at the time. There is not enough space in the codex to outline every situation and say its wrong, so common sense and reasoning is necessary when interpreting a situation and its status with the codex.

Orbit Storm Wrote: -Aye, but see... I never suggested outlining every situation, but merely outlining the more... controversial words.

I'd love to see a definitive list of these obvious controversial words. I just gave examples, and we give warnings in chat and sometimes poof next to players and warn them of these words so they have a chance of not repeating the same offense. Anyone who has been here long enough to truly understand the methods of staff would know that.

+Veritas wrote:We do not jail players “on a whim.”

-That was a more... theoretical statement..

You know, as someone who spends countless hours serving the playerbase here with player services, adding new content, orchestrating events...It's absolutely mind boggling how quick people are to crucify staff for a judgment call or decision made. I am someone who is already critical of myself in life, then alone my actions on a UO shard. I'm working on a big addition right now, and even writing down a storyline still for the events I have been hosting and am currently constructing, in ADDITION to the internship for my life long career...which is not to become the best shard seer, surprisingly. Yet, when I come on after work, I am always welcomed with things like this...

+Veritas wrote:We have a system of checks and balances where we check with the other staff members and ask them for their opinions on the matter. This includes me, a seer, asking a counselor about the fairness of my actions. Also, we need to keep our actions in check because the coordinating administrator, Colibri, always follows up with punishments. It’s not as if we have free reign.

-Which is wonderful to know. As I stated before, every staff member can interpret each rule as they see fit. I never questioned the judgment of staff, but merely pointed out that one player could get jailed for the very same thing another staffer might let them slip on.

However, the rest of the staff, including Colibri, will hear about it. So, if it is deemed a harsh or light sentence...the staff member who handled it will hear about it. I will speak on my behalf when I say I am not perfect at judgment calls, but we are obviously not doing so bad...looking at our player base.

+Veritas wrote:*I realize people drink alcohol, I being one of them, and that children see this in restaurants and family get-togethers. However, talking about irresponsible behavior with alcohol is not allowed.

Orbit Storm Wrote: -Not that I have a problem with this rule... but couldn't one argue the same could apply to both drugs and sex?

I said...
"No. Just no. Nobody wants to hear about it, or at least most don’t want to hear it. Talking about how hot an actor or actress is, is one thing. Detail is quite another. Vagueness and general commentary is your best friend for topics like this."

Honestly, you could play the cross application game all day when you are listing regulations with actions...

+Veritas wrote:Sex:

No. Just no. Nobody wants to hear about it, or at least most don’t want to hear it. Talking about how hot an actor or actress is, is one thing. Detail is quite another. Vagueness and general commentary is your best friend for topics like this. So, let’s say:

Orbit Storm Wrote: -Well, to me.. saying someone is "sexxi" in open chat just shouldn't be permissible, regardless of the intentions. If other things such as the simple use of the word "weed" isn't allowed, then why should this?
(This is the ONLY thing I won't change my view on. I could care less about what someone thinks of someone else in terms of attractiveness..)

Equating the meaning of "sexxi" and the meaning of "Weed" you are talking about is interesting. One is a commonly used word, one that may be offensive to some, but it does not directly imply any meaning or action that is illegal or commonly desired to be shielded from children. Weed, however, is an illegal thing and is a topic that is more commonly shielded from children by their parents. Let's just say, we get alot more requests for reprimands related to players talking about illegal substance use than players talking about "sexxi" people.

+Veritas wrote:Telling someone to “go to hell”, is deemed a personal attack.

Orbit Storm Said: -Aye.. well then how are less "vulgar" attacks not as frowned upon? I've seen clever flames in open chat as well in "over the head" chat, and nothing was ever said or done. Just a thought...

Where in any of my posts did I say that all other less "vulgar" attacks are cool? Ask anyone who consistently plays while I am on, how often I speak my mind on something that is even remotely vulgar or mean spirited. I warn, sometimes kid, and then I visit. Perhaps this is something that may be better seen with more time playing on the shard, just a thought...

+Veritas wrote: I have yet to see anyone say, “Hold on, I am unpacking my ass (jackass) at Brit bank so I can shrink it.” So, until that day comes that it is consistently used in the right context, I will see the word “Ass” as a swear word that I will warn against using. Also, calling someone a “jackass” may not be deemed as swearing, it is a personal attack.

Orbit Storm Said: -Glad I wasn't drinking anything here... rofl. I certainly see your point... But it still begs to question how others may see it. This is one of the words I'm speaking of being, controversial. Each person will take it an entirely different way, sadly..

Well, the only one I see begging the question is you.

+Veritas wrote: Sigh…anything you can foresee yourself getting in trouble for using, just don’t use it. If you use it, accept the consequences from not being able to use common sense and listening to staff warnings.

Orbit Storm Said: -Exactly what I pointed out in my initial post..

Then why are we having this conversation? I thought the idea was to ask for clearer and more definitive rules and regulations, yet there is no problem with this general and vague statement.

+Veritas wrote: Soliciting Other Shards:

This is for all methods of communication used in the shard and outside the client, but part of the shard (Global Chat, Overhead Chat, Private Messages, Guild Chat, Party Chat, Using books and passing them out, Forum, Ventrilo). A Ford car lot wouldn’t let a Honda salesman work their floor, why should we allow the competition to advertise here?

Orbit Storm Said: -Very well said.. advertising of another should should be an instant permaban.. period..

Glad we agree on one thing...

===========================

Orbit Storm Said:
Now.. here's an interesting one for you..

If one were to be in their OWN[/n] house, and someone would come into said house, WITH or WITHOUT permission.. or even stand outside and witness "vulgarity" inside between 2 players who are fine with it.. is it in the practice of staff to jail the two inside the house? Despite being in their own home?

(No, I haven't had this happen to me, nor heard of any such situation. I'm simply trying to assess how staff would handle an action that, for all intents and purposes, couldn't be more controversial )

I would say no, as long as it is a private house. As in, it is set to private. As long as it is set to private, nobody can read what you say inside, from outside the house. If someone followed you in, type “remove thyself” and target them.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I know it may be fun to spawn topics and totally stur the pudding. However, arguing on a topic that is not of anyone else’s concern, just for the sake of arguing...

This is my last post in response to this type of issue irritation. I will indulge and justify it no longer...

-V

..and...locked.