Considerations Regarding Vendor Change

[McCracken]

I read the post regarding vendors.uoex.net and concerns regarding it's effect on the economy and subsequent changes.
I appreciate the GM post and better understand the situation due to its explanation.
I was confused regarding the new fee for vendors outside of Maketo Zento and Town Center. I take it the intent is to nudge people to TC and MZ. But I was hoping a different idea, other than a fee for the community outside of MZ and TC could be considered. Perhaps a benefit for the TC/MZ people, such as salesman of the week deco. sign for their houses. Maybe a lottery those vendors at tc/mz are auto entered in (to encourage people to consider moving to them.)
The community feel of some of the other vendor locations I find really enjoyable. I respect what you did with the creation of MZ and TC but find TC, especially, to be cluttered. (I mean when i click control shift) I have trouble finding anything there, even when it was listed on Vendors.uoex. I also want to point out the increased fee may not sound like much, but for many of us it really adds up fast. I'm saddened by how much work the person who offered me my "free" (but pays for it for me) spot has put into the creation of a community feel at Umbra Road. If the vendors start leaving, due to the fees, it effects the community feel.
I just think maybe the above ideas might be win/win, regarding a non-fee based incentive for some people to choose MZ/TC. They could lead to supporting both, an increase in movement to MZ/TC vendoring and also encouragement for part-time, non-rich vendors at spontaneous community locations.

[Xavian]

There was a huge distaste for the vendor site by many when it initially went up because of it's near instant effect on the economy, this is actually a nice compromise. You used to be able to sell spots at TC. The actual vendor location, because they didn't open up very often at all. People paid the premiums to own a shop there because the area was frequented by most. Since the inception of the vendor site, there was no need to shop around and people moved to private houses with low to no vendor costs. The fact that you have to pay to be on the vendor site is now an incentive to go back to TC/MZ. If you don't want to, then pay the cost. The cost also serves as a way to eliminate more gold from the server, which is always a good thing.

[Dramoor]

I agree with both sides here. I dislike the vendors.uoex.net site no matter what the case is. But to see it used as a way to sink gold is beyond me if you are giving people in Zento and TC free rides. Their fees are far lower than having a vendor mall at your house. The back row far is what 30k per week to have a vendor there....To have a spot on the Tele is 200k. You can fight and say that you can have multiple vendors there, but what is the limit 42? So that is roughly paying an additional fee of 5k per shop per person (if you were to max out the vendor areas, none ever do so a more accurate number at most here is 20 which is 10k per vendor per week, with unlike TC and Zento have a additonal payment to keep your vendor at top of the list). I see newer players missing out on gaining any sort of ground with their goods, and the rich/vet gaining all the benefits, which basically means imho it is still at the same problem it had with the site being there. Problem is the site itself. Making changes to benefit players with Lots of gold doesn't change that same problem.

[McCracken]

And those prices kill vendors like me, who simply would not be able to afford that. There aren't many items on this server that will pay you 30k a week or come close to 200k a week. Realize if the concern is regarding the economy, this makes a huge impact on the economy, reducing sales items in the market, and gears it towards the wealthiest on the server. The easier it is to vendor, the more the economy will thrive, and include a greater variety of items (including from newer players who won't be selling the multi-million gold items).

If it was easy for anyone to sell, anywhere, but an incentive in MZ/TC for the wealthiest sellers, it would benefit the whole "village."

[Xavian]

The option is there for you to have your stuff listed on the site. If you want to pay the premium for TC/MZ it is included. If you want to have a free vendor at a vendor mall, then pay the price to have it listed. According to the page there is no requirement for a vendor to be near a world teleporter anymore. In essence you could have a free vendor mall with a house gate and just advertise for the vendor mall. The site never existed on OSI or here even a year and a half ago. People have always had vendor malls, and life went on normally. If the site must exist, this is an improvement because it forces people to pay to have their items indexed. The removal of the price also forces people to shop around a bit. Who's to say that one vendor that has their vendor indexed won't bring business to those around it? Life will go on, it will just cost more. And as for TC/MZ being included, I think their prices should be raised slightly to compensate. Just a low flat rate , but still less than a normal vendor as costs are already higher for the individual vendor

[Unbeliever]

I certainly understand why prices were taken off of uoex.vendors. I've played a lot of MMOs and I've yet to see a single one where more than a handful of players did cost analysis or were aware of/concerned with the economic impact of their gameplay. In any game where server-wide prices on an item are gathered into one neat column, players always cut each others' throats and their own, eventually selling for a loss without even realizing it. All it ever takes to drive prices down or up on an item in that situation is listing your own far below the lowest a few times or listing your own far above the highest and buying out the rest. It ALWAYS happens. With these changes it's possible but exponentially more difficult to manipulate the market and a significant number of players won't go to the effort it would require to do cutthroat business from this point forward. From this angle I think the change will acheive one of its goals.

I don't understand the part about complaints from Makoto/TC vendor owners - I have yet to see anyone discuss the validity of their gripes. Dramoor's post above was very well written but impossible for me to understand because I'm unfamiliar with the pricing scheme or even the fees charged by the vendors themselves. I can't speak on this.

Earlier as I was passing the computer I glanced and saw one or two people saying that this change makes buying too difficult for players with a limited amount of playtime available to them. I am one of those people. Lately I've only been able to steal a couple of hours very late at night once every two or three days to play. I agree that I would not want to be recalling/porting around for 1/2 an hour looking for the best price on whatever it is I want to buy. The thing is though - almost no one will ever truly HAVE to. Even for a total newbie like myself who didn't know anything about Ultima past 2001, gold started coming in very quickly. Did I shop for the lowest prices on everything when it was ridiculously easy for me to do so? Absolutely. Have I NEEDED to find the lowest price on a pet leash since my third week here? Absolutely not. It makes virtually no difference if I pay 5k or 6.5 k for a pet leash - my mules will net me over a million before I wear it out. That's true for all common-use items. When you start getting into pricier items - and by this I mean perhaps 50k and up - it will start making a difference worth worrying about. But the market won't be flooded with high-gp items either so it still isn't a problem. There may be what - max 3 Hunter's Headdresses listed at one time? It won't even take you three minutes to check prices on them all, much less 1/2 hour. Only a very poor and in-the-dark newb would have to spend any real time price shopping and even then I'd expect they could get a point in the right direction quickly if they ask in public chat.

[Kevan]

Have I NEEDED to find the lowest price on a pet leash since my third week here? Absolutely not. It makes virtually no difference if I pay 5k or 6.5 k for a pet leash - my mules will net me over a million before I wear it out.

Completely correct which also gives the TC vendors a tremendous advantage and further manages to punish the vendor houses on the world tele. If I need a leash and someone is selling them in TC for $6k they're going to get the vast majority of the shard's business. I can guarantee you that Devlin's shop could carry it for $4.5k and get less sales volume unless he heavily advertised it and kept it in stock consistently for a long time. The TC vendor doesn't have to work even half as hard, if they even have to work at all. There's a real cost in that situation to Devlin, even if it can't be measured as easily as comparing the fees for vendor placements and the vendors site.

I'm sure the GMs are putting a lot of thought in this but unless their goal is to discourage non-TC or MZ vendors, they have to be very careful about pricing people out of the market. If TC becomes an overpowering market location it's going to be very expensive to buy what will become very limited space there and the deep pockets will have a stranglehold on the shard's economy.

Has there been any consideration to only showing items on uoex to a certain price point to allow for comparative shopping on items in which it's not worth shopping around due to the time cost of shopping? Also, if this system is going to be implemented is there any reason not to reduce fees on a sliding scale as price goes up? It seems not many people will place their 2,000,000+gold items on their vendors because of the huge daily fees it accumulates. It would be nice to see either a cap or a lower % fee on the higher priced stuff so it doesn't just sit in people's banks unused because they can't/don't want to sell it on [c or the uoex forum.

[Xavian]

I will say again, there was no issue before, why should there be an issue now. There have always been vendor malls outside of TC/MZ. Long before there was a vendor site. Those vendor malls still got business. They still will get business. The change is just moving us one step back towards before the vendor site existed.

[Dramoor]

I think the point you are gathering is not coming really from what the discussion at least my views are.

It is not about pricing. It is about logic being used for fees. TC and Zento vendors pay a fee for their seat....Just as vendor malls pay their fees to have a way to get a person to their vendor mall.
My response was how this doesn't help many newer players get any ground on something, it only helps higher end veterans who are wealthy already and can afford to pay additional fees.
It is the same way like this....When the prices were available, since the game is basically more for gold (auctions, higher tiered items, eds etc...) You try to sell your goods faster, be you vet or newer player. So if an items value is set at say 30k real value, one player lowers it to 28k to sell, the next lowers to 25k and so on. Now a newer player could see that as a great thing to help them get an item faster, but think of the long run on a newer player.....Say you just made your character and while working your stats and skills up, you do some things like say Alchemy....Now you have some alchemy kegs....Well yes yes that would be good for you because we have bees on the server and Potion Kegs are needed and not everyone wants to spend time filling kegs. So you are like hey, I am new, I can make a few things to adjust myself up and help gain a little gold while I am working myself up so I can buy pets or armor or materials needed for doing both.
Now this vet with a script that auto does it all for himself while he is sleeping (For some reason crafting for a profit or buying things are not against the TOS to afk) decides "Well I am sleeping so I will lower this price on the new players trying to make something useful out of their time here" With the vendors site showing pricing, it makes it a lot easier for that person who has no cares for the new player, can instantly every hour check and lower his pricing accordingly.

Yes now prices are removed...But now to be on there is a fee....So what do we have now? Now that same new player may not have to deal with a price war with a bully, but instead, he cannot afford to have his vendor shown on the site. Therefore since all use the site first when looking for a specific item, will most likely be left out in the dust not selling stuff, even when paying the premium 200k to have his vendor mall on the teleporter.

Just sayin' that the effect doesn't really help any new player out having to pay more fees to compete with a vet who can afford to pay fees upon selling high and low quality items.

[Asmodean]

I agree with both sides here. I dislike the vendors.uoex.net site no matter what the case is. But to see it used as a way to sink gold is beyond me if you are giving people in Zento and TC free rides. Their fees are far lower than having a vendor mall at your house. The back row far is what 30k per week to have a vendor there....To have a spot on the Tele is 200k.

The difference is that the 30k per back row seat is per vendor, so 10 vendors is 30k each for a total of 300k. A vendor mall with 10 vendors is 200k for the porter, split among the vendors (if the owner charges them) or 20k per week per vendor. So its cheaper. With this new rule, even if it were 5k per vendor, you'd still be paying more in TC (30k / week - free listing) vs a vendor mall with 10 vendors (25k / vendor to be listed). Obviously, the more vendors you have in a mall, the cheaper it is per individual vendor in the mall. With some people having multiple houses, it wouldn't surprise me to have a couple houses joined together and multiple malls right next to each other reducing the costs even further.

I think its just bringing player vendor malls more in line with TC/MZ pricing, and keeping a gold sink. Large vendor malls will still have the advantage, but each individual will pay a bit more, sinking more gold.

[Dramoor]

I agree with both sides here. I dislike the vendors.uoex.net site no matter what the case is. But to see it used as a way to sink gold is beyond me if you are giving people in Zento and TC free rides. Their fees are far lower than having a vendor mall at your house. The back row far is what 30k per week to have a vendor there....To have a spot on the Tele is 200k.

The difference is that the 30k per back row seat is per vendor, so 10 vendors is 30k each for a total of 300k. A vendor mall with 10 vendors is 200k for the porter, split among the vendors (if the owner charges them) or 20k per week per vendor. So its cheaper. With this new rule, even if it were 5k per vendor, you'd still be paying more in TC (30k / week - free listing) vs a vendor mall with 10 vendors (25k / vendor to be listed). Obviously, the more vendors you have in a mall, the cheaper it is per individual vendor in the mall. With some people having multiple houses, it wouldn't surprise me to have a couple houses joined together and multiple malls right next to each other reducing the costs even further.

I think its just bringing player vendor malls more in line with TC/MZ pricing, and keeping a gold sink. Large vendor malls will still have the advantage, but each individual will pay a bit more, sinking more gold.

You do not read very well, MINIMUM of 5k per vendor and then raising pending what and pricing of your sales. Also, Vendor malls should never be in line with TC or ZENTO it is not MZ makuto is the ISLAND not the town name. TC and ZENTOR are a pay to have a better spot, Vendor malls are less because they are not as easy to locate...Also he said min of 5k PER DAY, so 5 x 5 is 25k. And TC and Zento are weekly. ....So we are on the lines of back to my statement being correct.. Vendor mall with 10 Vendors, 20k per vendor and 25k minimum added per vendor to be on the list per week. Sounds fair that u pay the same amount as a TC vendor....I don't see any logic in it other than "Lets clear more vet gold, who cares if new players cannot make ground."

Just so you can understand it more here you go with a good old quote

"but probably somewhere near the vendor's daily fee (multiplied with a factor of 1, making it the same), but at minimum 5000gp "

[Asmodean]

Ahh my mistake then, I thought it was per week not per day.

[Unbeliever]

Since, in any case, the current vendor/site setup is likely to last for some time, can someone explain or predict what needs to be done for players to now find a lot of vendors? I just searched for tambourines and over half the results show this:

Location House: Xxxxxx's house

Which is completely meaningless to anyone who's not already intimately familiar with that house. Now looking up sextant coords and running across the globe to mark runes is more like how we did it in the old days but feels tedious compared to the late system and certainly presents a sharp contrast to the shops which are still easily locatable. I see and agree with previous posters who said that world tele shops will get much more business even if private vendor malls are consistently cheaper. Without aggressive advertising, giving away free runes, something, people won't know where they are and I doubt they'll go to the trouble of looking for them.

[alchemyjim]

Well after reading and thinking about this I will say I support anything that helps tc. Not at expense of player stores. I am still not clear on fees. I know each vendor has a daily fee. if we want it listed on uoex that daily fee doubles. I am leaning towards not listing on vendors site. I had customers before the vendor site and will still be around with it's demise. If I did want to list and show my prices i could by putting price in description.

an unnamed player above said something of a 5000 daily fee. so if i under current system my keg vendor along with other items it sold had a daily rate of 2500. so to list it would add another 2500 and then unnamed players 5000 so fee for this vendor would be 7500 to 10000 a day depending on if i listed or not. needless to say this would probably close my vendor. Preparing for this i shut down 5 vendors and moved the remaining items to other 3. meaning the 5000 per vendor would have been 40000 not counting other fees. now if player is right will be 15000 a day for 3 vendors.

last but not least my prices have made my shop popular. when i started chyna had a shop in lower vespar that was best on shard and popular location helps but teleporters have eliminated location factor.

[+Nyx]

I imagine if one essentially exploited the purposeful removal of prices by putting them in the description, then one would likely be spoken to or have their vendor site privileges revoked for some length of time.