About the pets

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Unbeliever
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Re: About the pets

Post by Unbeliever »

Well thanks seoman, I expected to hear "nuh-uh" long before agreement. :) I was a little verbose earlier but summing up two of those paragraphs, players will go for what is generally believed to be the best, even if it isn't. That's what the 2nd part of that was about - the fact that even with the obviously limited number of viable pets currently in existence, players still largely do not bother to play around with different builds. 99% of what I've seen has been 5 mules, 5 nobles, 3+ imps, or 1 bio. There's already unused mix-and-match potential there, especially when you add extra pet slots.

If I were back in my Christmas wishlist thread, I'd probably write something like Yoda's suggestions. It seemed crazy to me that non-human bios had absolutely no inherited special abilities, making them pretty much coolness trophies for the super-rich. It seemed crazy that, outside of the power pets mentioned above, all maxed non-casting pets would essentially be identical in ability and power and all spellcasting pets likewise identical to each other. But with me not knowing what is possible or realistic to actually code in this game I'll just say that if it IS possible to add a wide range of specials to pets, I know at least one guy that will go crazy having fun with them. :) But if reality falls short of fantasy here, we'll wish for something smaller next time.

Last thing - I want to sound off about my support of albino squirrels! :D Truth be told, seeing them made me fall in love with the server before I even started playing. My wife and I collect squirrel + chipmunk items and we're woodsy people; I thought super squirrels was the coolest thing I'd seen in UO in a long time. I admit that it doesn't make much logical sense but I'd argue that most custom servers have lots of rare items that don't really fit into a swords-and-sorcery fantasy world, so why not squirrels? And small creatures are sometimes fiercer than huge ones - there's a great video online of a wolverine chasing a grizzly bear 15 times its size away from a deer carcass. ;)
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Re: About the pets

Post by +Nyx »

Well, naturally many folks will still end up using the same type of pet based on someone putting a "godmode - pet version" wikipedia entry up (I'm glaring at YOU, Devlin :P ), or etc. It's the nature of certain types of people to go with what others say, the easy route as it were. In the case of imps, it isn't just preference that became contagious and prolific, they are in fact by far the best pets, others aren't even worth considering for most applications. If we made it so that other pets were equally awesome in terms of stats/slots/specials/etc and therefore equal in usefulness, the copycat mentality will still exist, but mostly in terms of cosmetics. There will be options for those who don't want to just follow the crowd, to utilize other pets besides imps. Just because most people will still stick with what everyone else is doing/telling them to do in terms of pets doesn't mean that imps don't need a fix, or that we shouldn't work on options for those who want to change it up.


Anyway, the pets and breeding system won't really get a serious look until after the facets are open and we know what we're working with in terms of new custom pets. After they're open, and we see how things are going, we'll start working on fixing the various other things that we feel are broken or need a little TLC (pets, crafting, magery, BOD rewards, and so on.. the list is long). Probably somewhere in late spring or early summer is when the staff will be ready to start working on these sorts of things and making decisions.
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Re: About the pets

Post by Unbeliever »

I hear you, +Nyx. It's obvious even to a new player like me that imps are far and away the best pets (if one can afford them), making anything but human casting bios look sick by comparison. And in their current incarnation, having the best of everything and zero drawbacks, they're kinda begging for a fix. I'm sad that I pretty much missed the gravy train though, lol.
Looking forward to seeing the fruits of your creativity and labor.
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Re: About the pets

Post by seoman »

In a way though, shouldn't there be something that is far and away the best?

That gives people a goal to strive for, a goal.

The problem comes when that ultimate is such that it makes everything else worthless. Is that the case here?

Just because I had the money to buy/get 5 Imps and the next guy can't, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the system. I made it my goal to get the Imps and worked hard towards that. Trying to get Imp Dogs for a friend, I can't remember how many times ran Travesty and Lady Mel for the squirrels. I think I spent 75% of my game time at those two.


I guess my point is that there should be something ultimate to strive for, if want to but don't need to. The problem comes in when the other options aren't usable for "endgame" and that's not the fault of the ultimate and nerfing the ultimate doesn't solve that problem.
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Re: About the pets

Post by Annachie »

Yoda wrote: but pets in a way have a lot in common with Pokemon :dance


Because we got to catch them all? :lol:


Personally, I like the idea of having a pet that doesn't suffer stat loss when it dies, but am slightly dismayed that they are one of the hardest hitting pets.

Would it be as simple as just dropping the imps maxed stats? (and no doubt grandfathering the existing ones allowing them to keep their then too high stats)

Though I do like Yoda's thoughts too. Making use of power combinations could be interesting.
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Re: About the pets

Post by korndogg »

Great thread. I too was one that when I first GMed taming, grabbed a dragon and realized it wasnt worth it.

I like the thought of people using different creatures, as opposed to most striving to obtain and use the uber powerful imps. but i do respect the time and gold put into getting and powering them.

I also like the mention of all cats, dogs, horses, etc getting pack bonus instead of being name specific.

How about the idea of keeping everything the same, but there is a pet change deed that would transfer all stats from an imp to the animal of your choosing. Yet you would benefit from the bonus that creature carries. This way, if someone loves cats, they can take their 5 ointed up imps, and turn them into panthers. Changing the face of their pet, but keeping their investment AND pack instinct. If someone like me, who only has one imp, with maybe 330hp, can keep ointing it up, striving to get more imps, and change them as I go to whatever creature I want.

I dont know how to address the pet slot issue. Maybe keep it the same, but there is a HP limit. So something that is 1 pet slot, can have no more than 500hp. 2 pet slot, 750, etc... If you decide to change your imp to something that takes 1 slot, dont oint over 500 hps. So if someone has a 1k hp imp, you have the option to change it to a super awesome dragon or something. But if you take a 1k hp imp and change it to something that takes one slot, you take a hit (and an expensive one).You can still show your wealth by running around with 2 baller dragons that actually DO damage.

The way I see it, nobody gets nerfed, and you add WAY more diversity to what you see people running around with. I think (but no nothing about it), that this could be a simple change for the GMs and keep everyone happy. I would dig some version of this change.

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Re: About the pets

Post by Gaara »

Annachie wrote:
Yoda wrote: but pets in a way have a lot in common with Pokemon :dance


Because we got to catch them all? :lol:


Personally, I like the idea of having a pet that doesn't suffer stat loss when it dies, but am slightly dismayed that they are one of the hardest hitting pets.

Would it be as simple as just dropping the imps maxed stats? (and no doubt grandfathering the existing ones allowing them to keep their then too high stats)

Though I do like Yoda's thoughts too. Making use of power combinations could be interesting.
I think there could be some other pets that do not loose stats upon death but there should deffinately be some sort of a 'twist' to it really... At least to not be the strongest pets...

Otherwise, related to the topic, i'd love to have a small pixie being on my side and healing/dispelling negative spells for me :woot: :woot: :woot:
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Re: About the pets

Post by seoman »

korndogg wrote:Great thread. I too was one that when I first GMed taming, grabbed a dragon and realized it wasnt worth it.

I like the thought of people using different creatures, as opposed to most striving to obtain and use the uber powerful imps. but i do respect the time and gold put into getting and powering them.

I also like the mention of all cats, dogs, horses, etc getting pack bonus instead of being name specific.

How about the idea of keeping everything the same, but there is a pet change deed that would transfer all stats from an imp to the animal of your choosing. Yet you would benefit from the bonus that creature carries. This way, if someone loves cats, they can take their 5 ointed up imps, and turn them into panthers. Changing the face of their pet, but keeping their investment AND pack instinct. If someone like me, who only has one imp, with maybe 330hp, can keep ointing it up, striving to get more imps, and change them as I go to whatever creature I want.

I dont know how to address the pet slot issue. Maybe keep it the same, but there is a HP limit. So something that is 1 pet slot, can have no more than 500hp. 2 pet slot, 750, etc... If you decide to change your imp to something that takes 1 slot, dont oint over 500 hps. So if someone has a 1k hp imp, you have the option to change it to a super awesome dragon or something. But if you take a 1k hp imp and change it to something that takes one slot, you take a hit (and an expensive one).You can still show your wealth by running around with 2 baller dragons that actually DO damage.

The way I see it, nobody gets nerfed, and you add WAY more diversity to what you see people running around with. I think (but no nothing about it), that this could be a simple change for the GMs and keep everyone happy. I would dig some version of this change.

Randy Marsh

^ I like this idea a lot.



Honestly, the idea (in an immersion/fantasy setting) of running around with Dragons doesn't really work (and yes, I know that ferrets taking out dragons doesn't work either but that's game mechanics not imager). Dragons aren't meant to be controlled in most fantasy worlds. But the idea of running around with a tamed pack of wolves (with the strength of dragons)? That could be cool.
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Gaara
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Re: About the pets

Post by Gaara »

I'm happy to see what ever changes will be done as long as the old imprisoned stay untouched :lookingout:
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Re: About the pets

Post by tiggerjlk »

I am still a newb in terms of what I own, and I know this might not solve the problem, But it would be kind of cool to be able to buy a "pet leveling deed" similar to a weapon leveling deed. The deed could only be used on standard pets like dogs, cats, dragons, etc, and not the pets that start out already super strong.

maybe even have another deed that allows the pets to work as a pack even if they aren't the same.

I would use up some Excelsior dollars and that. :)

I would roam around with a hell hound, dragon, and a strong pack horse :)
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Re: About the pets

Post by Aryck »

Sorry this is such a long post:

I agree the pets need a reform, and I also agree that reimbursing players is ridiculous for the economy. I understand this following statement may come off as disrespectful but that's not my intention: I think nerfing anything as far as stats and things like that is a lazy solution and should only be utilized as a last resort.

I think there are 2 main reasons everyone has imps, 1 is they are quite easily obtainable 2 is that imps work in any situation that mules / nobles / other pets work for.

Instead of nerfing the imps themselves a better solution IMO would be a drop rate nerf. Make imps 10x harder to obtain, maybe make the bosses that drop them no pet zones, making them much more difficult to obtain for a newer player. Lets compare imps and relayers, with 5 imps you can just run through everything no need for any other pets, with 5 relayers you can run through everything as well, what is the difference? The 2500 ED 5 relayers costs. If imps were more "end game only" type items due to a incredibly low drop rate then everyone wouldn't have/use them.

As someone else said, imps are great for the 1 shot firebreathers, since w/ a quick res you can send them back in to do a little more damage before they die again and also for dealing lots of damage to high HP mobs quickly. Kronus people use bios since they have 3k HP. The staff needs to find a way to make other pets have there own individual uses like this (and the opportunity is there with new lands).

Few examples:

1. Mules are resistant to poison, so maybe a boss that does heavy poisoning (like amped up few 100 hp a pop poisoning) which would cause people to steer towards mules over imps in this situation.

2. Nobles seem faster than imps, so maybe make a dungeon where you must get through a series of doors ahead before it closes, and pets not unshrinkable once inside. Forcing people to use nobles or no pets, or their imps will be locked out due to their slower movement.

As for the pets that aren't really used here on excelsior, I think lowering slots on dragons and things and boosting damage would make them more favorable for newer players obviously and it wouldn't have much of negative impact on anyone who has imps and things. I am sure that the staff can create more creative scenarios, like the two I have just mentioned for mules and nobles, for other pets where it would be better to use them as opposed to another pet.

I know our very creative staff can come up with these things if they try. Hopefully then nobody cries about nerfs and other pets than imps / mules / nobles will be utilized more.
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Re: About the pets

Post by Gaara »

Aryck wrote:Sorry this is such a long post:

I agree the pets need a reform, and I also agree that reimbursing players is ridiculous for the economy. I understand this following statement may come off as disrespectful but that's not my intention: I think nerfing anything as far as stats and things like that is a lazy solution and should only be utilized as a last resort.

I think there are 2 main reasons everyone has imps, 1 is they are quite easily obtainable 2 is that imps work in any situation that mules / nobles / other pets work for.

Instead of nerfing the imps themselves a better solution IMO would be a drop rate nerf. Make imps 10x harder to obtain, maybe make the bosses that drop them no pet zones, making them much more difficult to obtain for a newer player. Lets compare imps and relayers, with 5 imps you can just run through everything no need for any other pets, with 5 relayers you can run through everything as well, what is the difference? The 2500 ED 5 relayers costs. If imps were more "end game only" type items due to a incredibly low drop rate then everyone wouldn't have/use them.

As someone else said, imps are great for the 1 shot firebreathers, since w/ a quick res you can send them back in to do a little more damage before they die again and also for dealing lots of damage to high HP mobs quickly. Kronus people use bios since they have 3k HP. The staff needs to find a way to make other pets have there own individual uses like this (and the opportunity is there with new lands).

Few examples:

1. Mules are resistant to poison, so maybe a boss that does heavy poisoning (like amped up few 100 hp a pop poisoning) which would cause people to steer towards mules over imps in this situation.

2. Nobles seem faster than imps, so maybe make a dungeon where you must get through a series of doors ahead before it closes, and pets not unshrinkable once inside. Forcing people to use nobles or no pets, or their imps will be locked out due to their slower movement.

As for the pets that aren't really used here on excelsior, I think lowering slots on dragons and things and boosting damage would make them more favorable for newer players obviously and it wouldn't have much of negative impact on anyone who has imps and things. I am sure that the staff can create more creative scenarios, like the two I have just mentioned for mules and nobles, for other pets where it would be better to use them as opposed to another pet.

I know our very creative staff can come up with these things if they try. Hopefully then nobody cries about nerfs and other pets than imps / mules / nobles will be utilized more.
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Re: About the pets

Post by Unbeliever »

RE: Aryck's ideas -

I agree that reimbursing is uncalled for but for a different reason. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I'd guess that everyone who has ointed up their imps and owned them for any length of time has made their money back on them and then some. I can't see reimbursing people for what was already a profitable investment, especially since they're generally regarded as easily obtainable and overpowered.

I would agree with a drop rate nerf if staff determined that the drop rate was excessive. In my own experience, I've killed Travesty over 55 times and haven't gotten a single imp dog so I can't swear that's the case. Also, there's a difference between something that is dropped excessively and something that is farmed ferociously. The number of monsters actually worth farming is rather limited and Travesty is among them. With players res killing her around the clock and/or going on 75 consecutive runs, you're going to see many "rare" drops because of the sheer volume.

I don't see any need to make Travesty or Lady Mel "pet free". If every newbie and their second cousin were running around with 5 ointed imps smashing the GOC quest then sure, but that's far from the case. If someone has experience with newer Ultima expansions, follows the Wiki guide to success to a T, and gets a nice start with the help of friends, imps will come easily enough I guess. I remember one particular player who had imps while he was still able to do the noob champ. From what I've seen in the past six months, that's not the typical player's start on Excelsior though.

The ideas about decreasing imps viability by playing to the strengths of certain other pets, I like very much. :)
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Re: About the pets

Post by Highroller »

If you want to limit imprisoned pets if its possible make them only useable in peerless areas. That way if someone want pets at a champ they have to use bred pets.

As for as changing other pets either make them use less slots or make their max stats match the number of slots they take. ie if dragons take 3 slots make their max str/hits 3000 vice 1000. I mean lets face it the number of pet slots was based on them coming out of the wild not what they could be bred up to. Which is why a dragon is 3 slots they are MUCH better out of the wild than say a frenzied ostard is ie when tamed.

Another possible option (assuming its doable) is to have an insurance option on pets so if they die you pay a set amount to prevent stat loss. Another possible option is a deed to apply to a pet to change it so it NEVER gets stat losses.

I don't know enough about coding to know how much of this if any is possible but I fully agree SOMETHING needs to be done to overhaul the current pet system.
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tiggerjlk
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Re: About the pets

Post by tiggerjlk »

All I know is that it has taken me about forever to get my squirrels even partially ointed up. I have been getting the oints on my own.

I hate to think after the hours/days I have spent getting oints to finally get some of the best pets on the shard, that they will end up getting limited/nerfed.

I think the new lands are supposed to take care of the ointed pets a bit...if I remember correctly
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